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Calling all Moonies


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#21 Par Shooter

Posted 21 July 2021 - 02:33 PM

Nice write up stampy  )



#22 Stamper

Posted 21 July 2021 - 10:10 PM

Brought this one up in the Discord chat tonight....

 

Tobruk - 1 or 2 slow spawning Stukas for Axis, but Allies get another M10 at the main, plus Shermans at all flags and fixed machine gun placements all over the place to counter the Stukas.  They're probably the easiest planes to shoot down (so the Brits won't need a plane), and are rarely used well in maps where they're currently present (i.e., Kharkov).     No additional AA necessary, except maybe at the British main so the Axis don't use the Stukas to bail and cap the main within the first minute of the game.  That, or coordinate the Stuka to spawn like the BF110 in Husky (plane only spawns when Brits have beach in Husky) - or reverse it - if possible, program the Stuka to STOP spawning if the Germans have a certain number of flags, or get the main, etc.....     

 

I just thought this would add another layer of potential gameplay for Tobruk but without wrecking the core features/gameplay that it possesses presently.

 

Just another zany idea, thanks for reading ;).  



#23 Capn Cackler

Posted 21 July 2021 - 11:44 PM

Brought this one up in the Discord chat tonight....

 

Tobruk - 1 or 2 slow spawning Stukas for Axis, but Allies get another M10 at the main, plus Shermans at all flags and fixed machine gun placements all over the place to counter the Stukas.  They're probably the easiest planes to shoot down (so the Brits won't need a plane), and are rarely used well in maps where they're currently present (i.e., Kharkov).     No additional AA necessary, except maybe at the British main so the Axis don't use the Stukas to bail and cap the main within the first minute of the game.  That, or coordinate the Stuka to spawn like the BF110 in Husky (plane only spawns when Brits have beach in Husky) - or reverse it - if possible, program the Stuka to STOP spawning if the Germans have a certain number of flags, or get the main, etc.....     

 

I just thought this would add another layer of potential gameplay for Tobruk but without wrecking the core features/gameplay that it possesses presently.

 

Just another zany idea, thanks for reading ;).  

First let me ask you one question. What kind of map is Tobruk meant to be?

To me, its a map designed for the push of tanks and it is designed primarily for tanks to be able to cross the vast expanses with little fear of getting blown to shreds like they usually would be. I worry that planes will indeed change the core gameplay and also allow for far easier pushes of individual flags designed to be tough (provided they are defended decently) for ground based units. Planes are an extremely powerful vehicle used correctly, and even the best tankers won't stand a chance against average pilots due to having almost no cover at all from above. One other important detail to consider is that good pilots are extremely hard to shoot down, and I consider myself a pro at doing so. The average player will have a near-impossible time doing the same. While you suggest preventing the respawn of an aircraft if the axis capture a certain number of flags (it would most likely be them capturing one certain flag to prevent it spawning), the axis would avoid said flag until the very end and just have their aircraft demolishing everything else. Even if the flag is captured, that won't stop a good pilot from continually bombing everything that moves.

That is just my opinion on adding aircraft to Tobruk, although I would also love to see the stuka used more.


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#24 Stamper

Posted 22 July 2021 - 12:01 PM

Brought this one up in the Discord chat tonight....
 
Tobruk - 1 or 2 slow spawning Stukas for Axis, but Allies get another M10 at the main, plus Shermans at all flags and fixed machine gun placements all over the place to counter the Stukas.  They're probably the easiest planes to shoot down (so the Brits won't need a plane), and are rarely used well in maps where they're currently present (i.e., Kharkov).     No additional AA necessary, except maybe at the British main so the Axis don't use the Stukas to bail and cap the main within the first minute of the game.  That, or coordinate the Stuka to spawn like the BF110 in Husky (plane only spawns when Brits have beach in Husky) - or reverse it - if possible, program the Stuka to STOP spawning if the Germans have a certain number of flags, or get the main, etc.....     
 
I just thought this would add another layer of potential gameplay for Tobruk but without wrecking the core features/gameplay that it possesses presently.
 
Just another zany idea, thanks for reading ;).

First let me ask you one question. What kind of map is Tobruk meant to be?

To me, its a map designed for the push of tanks and it is designed primarily for tanks to be able to cross the vast expanses with little fear of getting blown to shreds like they usually would be. I worry that planes will indeed change the core gameplay and also allow for far easier pushes of individual flags designed to be tough (provided they are defended decently) for ground based units. Planes are an extremely powerful vehicle used correctly, and even the best tankers won't stand a chance against average pilots due to having almost no cover at all from above. One other important detail to consider is that good pilots are extremely hard to shoot down, and I consider myself a pro at doing so. The average player will have a near-impossible time doing the same. While you suggest preventing the respawn of an aircraft if the axis capture a certain number of flags (it would most likely be them capturing one certain flag to prevent it spawning), the axis would avoid said flag until the very end and just have their aircraft demolishing everything else. Even if the flag is captured, that won't stop a good pilot from continually bombing everything that moves.

That is just my opinion on adding aircraft to Tobruk, although I would also love to see the stuka used more.





Good points, Cackler, particularly addressing the maps initial intention. Glad you said that, I hadn’t considered that perspective. I’m also on the same page as you on planes - even as a pilot (who still needs a joystick....two months without one is eating at my soul). However, what if one Stuka (no clue why I said two) was set to spawn every five or eight minutes (like a carrier)? No bomb reload either. I guess you could say my suggestion simply comes from having seen Axis stranded between the main and first line of flags quite frequently, and/or being on axis and being stuck there myself - in both scenarios, there have been lines of Shermans at the frontline. While this scenario is the map’s intended design, it can go nowhere quickly. The Stuka, being a flying slug, even in the hands of a competent pilot, could at least give the axis a slighter advantage to punch through the front, and with enough tanks in contrast, the allies could knock down the Stuka before it drops half it’s bomb load. It’s very easy to hit with machine guns, too, and at the very least, it could be scared off. The issue lay with smart pilots taking it out to the south side of the lake, landing and repairing it, and bringing it back for more, even with nerfed bombs and no reload.

With the amount of tanks and machine guns already on the map, I personally don’t foresee the Stuka having the potential to make it a runaway win for Axis, particularly if Brits get more tanks, a pak40 or two, more gun emplacements, etc.

Perhaps it was wishful thinking. Definitely don’t want to drive people away from the server because the map mod went too far away from the original designer’s intentions. I guess you could say I’m now on the fence about it leaning towards “no”, rather than “Let’s try it!!”

Thanks for the feedback!
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#25 Stamper

Posted 23 July 2021 - 02:24 PM

Sorry, almost feel like I'm spamming forum...

 

Omaha CQ - For a little realism and, well, to assist Allies slightly, could the default engineer kit be switched from the Enfield to the Garand, and the wrench of the Axis kits be less effective at repairing?

 

Tobruk CQ - Maybe a couple Pak40s behind the sandbags on the hill outside of Axis main and at some of the first/second line flags?

 

I have no idea how to even go about writing this next one, but low gravity was turned on for Berlin CTF a few nights ago, and I really enjoyed it.  Could we try this once in a blue moon (once a month maybe?) with properly modded maps to accommodate low gravity, such as Caen CQ or Caen CTF (probably would need to remove the parachute drop in ctf...unless we all want to float around the city like ghosts lol), Omaha CQ (remove ship and vehicles), Berlin/Stalin CTF and CQ?

 

Just more zany ideas.  ;)   Thanks for readin'.


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#26 Capn Cackler

Posted 24 July 2021 - 11:35 PM

More ways for infantry to heal in Bulge would be nice. Possibly some dual purpose ammo boxes. As is, there are only 4 and they are super out of the way and a pain to get to (Axis and allied bases, one on hill east of the M10 flag, and one in the sawmill far west of the windmill/bridge flags). Does not help that medics are a rarity on that map.


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#27 Stamper

Posted 25 July 2021 - 09:21 AM

More ways for infantry to heal in Bulge would be nice. Possibly some dual purpose ammo boxes. As is, there are only 4 and they are super out of the way and a pain to get to (Axis and allied bases, one on hill east of the M10 flag, and one in the sawmill far west of the windmill/bridge flags). Does not help that medics are a rarity on that map.

 

As long as it wouldn't offset the tank carnage on this map, maybe a jeep and an APC that spawns quickly when destroyed at some of the flags outside of the mains instead of the ammo/med boxes?  Jeeps to help pick up the pace for getting flags, APCs at flags like the bridge and church in particular could help.  The church looks like a drive-in-movie-gone-turkey-shoot for tanks when all the tanks converge there and there's little way for anybody, even someone with a zook, to survive...

 

Not shootin' down you're idea, just adding to it from another perspective because I agree with it.  



#28 Par Shooter

Posted 25 July 2021 - 12:33 PM

Plus on Bulge there are a few players that sit in the red base shelling the windmill or left flag from wespe or tanks ,,, as like in Market you zook them you het auto killed is there a way of stopping this as it spoils things for allies...

 

Plus we just played CTF el al and it was brilliant but axis planes take far too long to spawn and i was tkd 2 times for a plane as red players standing about for plane spawn they seem to spawn faster on allies 

 

please can this be adjusted ?

 

Regards 

Par



#29 FriendlyNoob

Posted 14 August 2021 - 02:45 AM

Par shooter is right. On levels with only one uncapturable base (Bulge, Liberation Caen, Tobruk) base attack should be allowed. 1. The one side is allowed to attack all of the bases, but the other side cannot? 2. On those levels base attack excessive spawn killing has never been a problem. On Bulge there are so many tanks available for axis. 3. Arty just sits in the base abusing no base attack.

Bulge- can we move the ammo crate back behind the windmill or inside it? Now it's in the line of fire.

Bocage- Can we lift the grenade limit on the windmill ammo crate? Planes have 30 bombs but infantry only gets 3 nades?

Tobruk- please don't add planes. Every level has already turned into a plane raping fest of 20-40 to 1 kill ratios.

Flak- up the damage or return planes to prepatch damage and armor. Or add battle of Britain type flak.
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#30 Stamper

Posted 14 August 2021 - 07:41 AM

Par shooter is right. On levels with only one uncapturable base (Bulge, Liberation Caen, Tobruk) base attack should be allowed. 1. The one side is allowed to attack all of the bases, but the other side cannot? 2. On those levels base attack excessive spawn killing has never been a problem. On Bulge there are so many tanks available for axis. 3. Arty just sits in the base abusing no base attack.

Bulge- can we move the ammo crate back behind the windmill or inside it? Now it's in the line of fire.

Bocage- Can we lift the grenade limit on the windmill ammo crate? Planes have 30 bombs but infantry only gets 3 nades?

Tobruk- please don't add planes. Every level has already turned into a plane raping fest of 20-40 to 1 kill ratios.

Flak- up the damage or return planes to prepatch damage and armor. Or add battle of Britain type flak.

 

 

For Bulge, I see what you and Par are saying about the artillery/armor just shelling the windmill.  I never spawn there for that reason if I play Allies, and ignore the flag in general when I play Axis. Would it be a fair compromise if moonbot were programmed that you can shoot back at the active armor in the base, just not within the base like Battleaxe?   

 

That said, I do like how the gameplay in Caen and Tobruk is centered on the flags and not the mains, and aside from the windmill spamming, Bulge as well.  It's really annoying to spawn in Caen, for example, with some dumba** on Axis in the building behind the tank with a zook just waiting for you.  A.)  That's one less Axis player defending a flag, and B.) we have enough jeeps there to basically nullify the point of someone camping there - someone will make it out and over the bridge.  All it will take is two people to make it out of the base and the Canadians will win as all of Axis pound the tiny main, so I personally don't see a point in the baseattack for Caen.  In fact, I wouldn't mind a tiny death bubble on the bridge(s) outside of the Canadian main for Axis players who like to lay mines on it.  

 

Edit - Oh!  A little birdie tells me that there might have been a Wespe that spawned at the church (In Caen) at one point for Axis.....in the event the map rules stay as is, could they have it back?  



#31 FriendlyNoob

Posted 14 August 2021 - 03:09 PM

Exactly base attack in Caen is a minor inconvenience, not game balance breaking. That zooker is going to get 1 or 2 kills before someone medic spawns and kills him.
Mining bridge adds game dynamic and adds a guerilla warfare/sabotage element to the game.

On Caen base attack should be allowed as it gives the game dynamic and when axis is losing badly and someone makes the long haul to the Canadian base stealing a tank can turn the game around. Otherwise, alone axis player has little chance to retake the river base against a tank sitting on the repair pad. And it's not game breaking 20+ spawn kill fest that causes players to quit. Which is the spirit of the rule.

#32 Stamper

Posted 14 August 2021 - 09:57 PM

On Caen base attack should be allowed as it gives the game dynamic and when axis is losing badly and someone makes the long haul to the Canadian base stealing a tank can turn the game around. 

Don't quote me on this, but I 'think' you can steal a tank in there without Moonbot killing you when you're in a pinch (i.e. no flags left and you're the last German)...similar to Tobruk and Bulge.....  On Allies before, I want to say I've encountered a couple unfriendly Axis-acquired Shermans from the Allied main, driven by the last Axis man standing, and lost the 'argument' against it with my Thompson or Johnson LMG  in a surprising appearance of said tank.  

 

I'm also recalling my experience with Caen before the no-baseattack rule was established last year and have simply grown to prefer the way it is now.  Comparing baseattack vs. non-baseattack, despite my love for variety (and understanding what you're saying) and also being acclimated to playing infantry only for the last three months (as opposed to piloting), I feel the Caen CQ rounds generally flow better as opposed to being bottlenecked in a baseattack scenario.   If you want to hold the Canadians up, mine the Pegasus bridge and use the MAP to your advantage of holding the German flags, not hold the Canadians in their base.  I love being able to move if on Allied, and I love the constant pressure whenever I play German to keep the flags - the map is certainly small enough to do so regardless of who holds the south river flag with the repair pad.  

 

Just my $0.02.   



#33 Capn Cackler

Posted 14 August 2021 - 11:18 PM

Par shooter is right. On levels with only one uncapturable base (Bulge, Liberation Caen, Tobruk) base attack should be allowed. 1. The one side is allowed to attack all of the bases, but the other side cannot? 2. On those levels base attack excessive spawn killing has never been a problem. On Bulge there are so many tanks available for axis. 3. Arty just sits in the base abusing no base attack.

Bulge- can we move the ammo crate back behind the windmill or inside it? Now it's in the line of fire.

Bocage- Can we lift the grenade limit on the windmill ammo crate? Planes have 30 bombs but infantry only gets 3 nades?

Tobruk- please don't add planes. Every level has already turned into a plane raping fest of 20-40 to 1 kill ratios.

Flak- up the damage or return planes to prepatch damage and armor. Or add battle of Britain type flak.

Let me respond to some of your ideas here.

Bocage- Grenade and expack limit is to prevent people from camping in the windmill by spamming either. That is the only ammo box on that map that does not refill grenades and expacks.

 

Flak- Is already REALLY good. Problem is that most players just seem to be ignorant of/underestimate its power. I personally consider it one of the strongest weapons in the game, yet hardly anybody ever uses it because they only think of it as "an anti air weapon."

 

Assault Maps (Caen, Bulge, Tobruk, maybe even Market counts idk) - If the attacking team is sitting in their main and shooting outwards, they aren't going to be getting a lot of flags, and thus not going to be winning. From what I have seen, the only time the defending teams attack the uncaps, is when they are too strong. If that is the case, why would I want to play when my team is just getting completely slaughtered in our own main?

 

 

Something to consider is that the game is in a newer era. Teams DO NOT communicate as much as I hear they used to. Many players play "alone", with little regard for teammates. This is why many of the rules on certain maps are the way they are. New era, New players, New rules. Perhaps we could have an event that would change these rules back to near vanilla, but otherwise not.


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#34 MehulJ

Posted 14 August 2021 - 11:54 PM

I really like the last point that you made on the "LACK OF COMMUNICATION"...

I feel now it is more about individual scores, and ego ... 

Players are way too serious at times ... but yeah, maybe that's how it is supposed to be going forward ...

But the constant communication makes you feel more closer as a unit, and makes playing fun ... like we see in almost every war movie ;) The ones who go out alone usually don't make it back...


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#35 Wasabi®

Posted 15 August 2021 - 01:12 PM

Cackler is right, the new era players like playing cheap for maximum score. Many of them TK for planes and are impatient, and will mercilessly baserape if allowed to do so. That is why we have these rules on the server.


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