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The Case For Primary Expacks


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#1 scottisblack

Posted 08 September 2015 - 02:07 PM

I'm in the camp of people who believe expacks should be allowed as primary weapons.  I agree, however, that it would be ideal if FF expack damage was full ( self damage at least).  It's very annoying when the person standing next to you detonates the expack and survives while you die. But I digress.

 

The expack rule puts engineers at a severe disadvantage, particularly in close combat.  I've heard a certain Admin suggest that the Engineer should empty his clip before even considering using Expacks against Non-Vehicles.  This means almost certain death.  Even if you are lucky enough to hit your opponent (which is tricky) you often have to shoot them up to 2-3 times before they will die ( a virtual impossibility with slow reload). Obviously you would expect the engineer to lose a strong majority of close ranged battles, and that is still the case with expacks allowed as primary.  However, the expack gives an approaching Infantry an incentive to keep his distance.  It's that distance that allows the Engineer to actually succeed in getting that head shot with the rifle.

 

If the Medic knows that the engineer is handcuffed from using his expack, he can simply dance his way to close range while spam healing and then gun him down with ease.  Currently since compliance for this rule is so low, this is not as likely to happen.

 

All the other classes, including snipers have the ability to use nades offensively and defensively which is highly useful and represent a decent percentage of the total kills for any class.  Its not uncommon to see skilled players using Anti-Tank class, racking up a large percentage of their kills with nades and near the top of leaderboard.   As I have implied, the hapless engineer has little chance of dissuading anyone from approaching with his pistol and rifle.

 

Additionally, even with the current situation of engineers not complying with expack rule, you do not often see engineers atop the leader boards (with the exception of Pilots, Tanks, and Pacific maps like Iwo Jima with the superior rifle) which suggests that expacks and engineers are a useful but not overpowered class.  (Their utility certainly can't be denied with mines and wrench )

 

I suspect the argument against expacks is more of an emotional one than one based on any unfair advantage.  Many people dont' like getting expacked; especially repeatedly.  It makes them angry.  But if you take a step back and look at things, they actually help provide a more balanced gameplay then not. 

 

In summary, removal of expacks as primary weapons is a mistake and only serves to significantly reduce the incentive for non-vehicle-driving players to choose that class.

 

 

The other problem that I will just touch on briefly:     The rule is so poorly enforced that it effectively only penalizes the small minority of regulars that agree to comply, thus creating a frustrating experience for those people  when they are expacked themselves

 

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note: I have Lyme Disease (with a mind like scrambled eggs at times) and I have to go back and edit anything I write so if something doesn't make sense please let me know.



#2 dodgem

Posted 08 September 2015 - 04:21 PM

Hi Scottisblack,

 

I remember touching on this conversation with you once in game a few months ago.  I'm glad you've brought it to the forums to discuss further.

 

I'll start by expressing my own opinion - Almost all of what you have said seems to ignore a couple of important points.  Namely, that engineers aren't supposed to be close quarter infantrymen and that engineers can get a good score with an engy rifle.

 

So, let's begin with the first point:

 

1.  Engineers aren't supposed to dive into close quarter battles.  By all means, it's a free game and players can do what they like.  But they shouldn't then expect to win a close quarter battle when they're going up against an assault or medic enemy.  As with all classes, you have to be strategic.  If an assault/medic class is approaching you, you back away whilst continuing to shoot with your rifle.  I've practiced and practiced circle-sniping on all types of maps and the premise is the same: don't let the enemy get too close and, if they do, shoot your rifle once (with the hope of a no-scope) and then pull out your pistol.  You not only get better at sniping, you also get better at pistoling.  Also, I don't think I have ever seen an engy use expacks to keep distance between himself and an enemy so that he can revert back to his rifle to shoot them.  All the ones I have seen throw the expacks and either run away in the hope the enemy is naive enough to follow or they get 5 feet away so that they can detonate without killing themselves.

 

2.  There are/were very good riflemen! Do you remember a player called Tambulance (played 2003/4 - 2011 ish)? He was the best no4/k98 shot I knew (although I haven't played many other servers) and I got on with him very well.  Anyway, he would often kill me with a rifle as I approached him (bunny-hopping/healing like crazy).  Yes, he had a sub 60 ping, but he practiced and practiced with that class and very rarely used expacks against infantry.  I feel the assumption you are making is that no amount of practice can win you a battle against an assault/medic enemy.  The key is to get them before they get close and if an engineer is finding that he can't do that, then it probably isn't a particularly appropriate map to be an engineer.

 

The reason you don't see engineers at the top of the leaderboards (anymore) is because almost all of them resort to expacking rather than practicing with their rifles/pistols. Engineers do have secondary weapons and the pistol is massively underrated.  When we used to play Omaha TDM 2700 tickets, I remember playing once using ONLY my pistol, knife and med-kit (no grenades and no Thompson).  I managed to get a score of around 260-260-130....on a public server.  

I also think the Pacific rifles prove a point here because players at the top of the leaderboard on Wake Island, for example, are often engineers simply because the rifle is easier to use (not better).  My point is that just because a rifle is hard to get good at using, it doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

I'll go one step further and use the example of the medic guns:  most newer players and most non-competitive players would say the Thompson is the best medic gun.  However, if you asked that question in the heyday of the Ghetto Berlin server, all the competitive players there would tell you that the MP18 is the best followed by the MP40 (with the Thompson being the worst).  The only problem is that they take longer to get very good at using.  

 

 

As for the rule and adminning it:  one of our admins recently brought up this issue and wanted clarification.  Hopefully the Senior Admins here will be able to clarify the rule for both admins and players alike shortly.

 

The way I read the rule personally is that it's not a question of using an expack once or twice in a situation like those you've described.  I always saw the rule as attempting to curb players who used expacks for 90+% of their kills (they're using them as if they were primary weapons i.e. all the time, NOT that they're using them in a situation where you'd normally use your primary weapon).  Only now do I see how this rule might have confused many and I admit, I will have to have a think/look through the admin forums to find the original wording of the policy.  Either way, rest assured it will be discussed and clarified in the not too distant future.


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#3 Slash

Posted 08 September 2015 - 05:33 PM

I use engy class about 30-40% of the time and I agree with scottisblack in this.  In my experience, using expacks actually takes quite a bit of skill to use successfully and is a very handy in close quarters situations. 

 

That being said, I don't use expacks as a primary weapon.  Is this a thing even?  I mean I rarely see anyone running around with expacks as a primary weapon.  If so that is an easy kill.  If someone is getting 90+% of their kills with expacks I would guess that they are having a fairly shitty round, likely with less points than kills.  And definitely more deaths than kills.

 

In my opinion the enforcement of nade spamming is a much bigger issue.  The usage of expacks is fine.



#4 scottisblack

Posted 08 September 2015 - 06:24 PM

I did assume the most strict interpretation of the rule.  So all of my points are based off that.
 

 

"I'll start by expressing my own opinion - Almost all of what you have said seems to ignore a couple of important points.  Namely, that engineers aren't supposed to be close quarter infantrymen and that engineers can get a good score with an engy rifle."

 

I agree with this which is why I said that engineers should be expected to die in the vast majority of close combat situations.  The absence of defensive explosives makes a bleak situation even more bleak.

 

That's the point I was trying to make.    I personally am much more careful about approaching engineers too closely and try to stand just out of expack range when firing on them (if they don't see me i will go straight for them).    Occasionally maintaining that distance will result in me taking a bullet in the head but it eliminates the higher percentage expack kills.

 

Knowing that the engineer has no expacks would take away any incentive NOT to close distance.  Even snipers will lob grenades at your feet as you approach them (highly effective too).

 

2.  There are/were very good riflemen

Yes I agree with this but they are a little bit like sasquatch because we rarely see them.  (exception below)

 

"!...  I also think the Pacific rifles prove a point here because players at the top of the leaderboard on Wake Island...."

 

The Pacific maps are an exception because the rifles can fire in such rapid succession(love them rifles).  You can hit a guy twice before he can even react.  The problem with the normal eng. rifle is not missing your target so much as the slow reload and possibly having to hit your target up to 4 times(since medics can heal while you are reloading).  The pacific rifles are so much better as to not even be comparable IMO.

 

The reason you don't see engineers at the top of the leaderboards (anymore) is because almost all of them resort to expacking rather than practicing with their rifles/pistols.

 

I agree that pistols are underrated but they are hardly a comparable deterrent to expacks and nades. 

 

All I'm really arguing for is for the freedom to use expacks in all reasonable situations and just not arbitrarily deny their use.  Certainly if someone is using the expack for the majority of the round then something is wrong and that can be addressed.

 

Either way, rest assured it will be discussed and clarified in the not too distant future.

 

That's good to hear, I think that the issue needs to be revisited and or clarified.

I think i'll leave it there for tonight but thanks for the response, you made a lot of other good points.

 

(sorry i'm having trouble editing  this message properly)


Edited by scottisblack, 09 September 2015 - 07:24 AM.


#5 scottisblack

Posted 08 September 2015 - 06:27 PM


In my opinion the enforcement of nade spamming is a much bigger issue.  The usage of expacks is fine.

Agreed.  I would trade my expacks for nades any day which is why i feel they should not have limitations on them.



#6 Renlist

Posted 08 September 2015 - 10:39 PM

I agree, however, that it would be ideal if FF expack damage was full ( self damage at least).  It's very annoying when the person standing next to you detonates the expack and survives while you die. But I digress.

 

 

 

 

Actually, that was my issue in my earlier topic post about expacks and grenade self damage.  Engineers will die if they blow up a vehicle near them with an expack, but that's due to the vehicle explosion damage killing them. Your post should probably be merged with mine (as a reply in my post) by a forum admin, just to keep things tidy here.



#7 scottisblack

Posted 09 September 2015 - 07:22 AM

 

I agree, however, that it would be ideal if FF expack damage was full ( self damage at least).  It's very annoying when the person standing next to you detonates the expack and survives while you die. But I digress.

 

 

 

 

Actually, that was my issue in my earlier topic post about expacks and grenade self damage.  Engineers will die if they blow up a vehicle near them with an expack, but that's due to the vehicle explosion damage killing them. Your post should probably be merged with mine (as a reply in my post) by a forum admin, just to keep things tidy here.

 

actually it was your post that made me make this topic. I  tried to link to yours but i was tired and couldn't figure out how that worked.  I figured it was a separate topic.



#8 Steve2112

Posted 09 September 2015 - 09:03 AM

I don't think anyone is saying you can't use the expack to blow up an infantry- although some people clearly use it as a "primary weapon". 

 

Some people are asking for a reasonable and more realistic event. It's meant to blow up large vehicles, even bridges and buildings...from a distance. If you so choose engy, and you encounter infantry and opt to use your detonation device, should you not then suffer the consequences? Same as carelessly using a nade...which I indeed have trouble with. I tend to blow myself up as much as not. I'm using it carelessly and suffering the consequences. 

 

So while you say an infantry should approach with caution....shouldn't the engy use his powerful weaponry with caution as well? 

 

TBH...the same could be said for incorrectly dropping bombs from planes huh? But at least there the bomb does explode harmlessly, w/o kills. 

 

I was curious you said something....how do you tell "from far off" what class the enemy soldier is? 



#9 Steve2112

Posted 09 September 2015 - 09:06 AM

 

I agree, however, that it would be ideal if FF expack damage was full ( self damage at least).  It's very annoying when the person standing next to you detonates the expack and survives while you die. But I digress.

 

 

 

 

Actually, that was my issue in my earlier topic post about expacks and grenade self damage.  Engineers will die if they blow up a vehicle near them with an expack, but that's due to the vehicle explosion damage killing them. Your post should probably be merged with mine (as a reply in my post) by a forum admin, just to keep things tidy here.

 

 

 

 

Actually Scott...it's not a digression. That's the main point here!



#10 scottisblack

Posted 09 September 2015 - 09:42 AM

 

 

I agree, however, that it would be ideal if FF expack damage was full ( self damage at least).  It's very annoying when the person standing next to you detonates the expack and survives while you die. But I digress.

 

 

 

 

Actually, that was my issue in my earlier topic post about expacks and grenade self damage.  Engineers will die if they blow up a vehicle near them with an expack, but that's due to the vehicle explosion damage killing them. Your post should probably be merged with mine (as a reply in my post) by a forum admin, just to keep things tidy here.

 

 

 

 

Actually Scott...it's not a digression. That's the main point here!

 

I can see what you mean.  I meant I was digressing from the point about expacks needing to be set to full damage.  



#11 scottisblack

Posted 09 September 2015 - 10:05 AM


 

 

 

I don't think anyone is saying you can't use the expack to blow up an infantry- although some people clearly use it as a "primary weapon"."

 

Actually some Admins seem to have a more strict interpretation than that.  We don't want people getting kicked or booted for something that is inconsistently enforced.  Hence the need for clarification or possible removal of the rule.

 

'I was curious you said something....how do you tell "from far off" what class the enemy soldier is?'

 

I don't find that particularly hard at medium range.  You can usually get a very good idea based on appearance and behaviour.

 

Some people are asking for a reasonable and more realistic event. It's meant to blow up large vehicles, even bridges and buildings...from a distance. If you so choose engy, and you encounter infantry and opt to use your detonation device, should you not then suffer the consequences?

 

If it were as outrageous as a bazooka shooting a plane out of the sky I would agree but there are too many other idiosyncrasies like this to bother nit-picking.  Especially when the expack offers no unfair advantage (especially with self FF at full which has my vote if possible). 



#12 Steve2112

Posted 09 September 2015 - 10:54 AM

 

 

If it were as outrageous as a bazooka shooting a plane out of the sky I would agree but there are too many other idiosyncrasies like this to bother nit-picking.  Especially when the expack offers no unfair advantage (especially with self FF at full which has my vote if possible). 

 

 

 

Not sure what you mean there, but I have indeed used zooks to shoot planes...it's fun!

 

As it stands  NOW...the expack is an unfair advantage in near and hand to hand combat. If I get what you are saying...changing to "self FF"? Is that full damage? then we are in agreement. I think it's not only a reasonable expectation of the weapons use, but a good compromise between using it willy nilly and (supposedly) not supposed to use it against infantry as your primary weapon. So either use your rifle, pistol....or use your pack and blow us both to he11!      :boom:



#13 -=TheTroopeR=-

Posted 09 September 2015 - 12:40 PM

I play mostly as engee as I most of times i am pilot,  that made me with time to became good at engee rifle (at my joung times in game, now im rusty) ,  I dont like expacks to be used as primary weapon.  In my humble opinnion expacks should not be used as primary weapon,  when I face in battle another engee I use rifle and pass to pistol and to knife and see what happens,  I hate when the other engee just turn backs to me run and drop an expack,  some times I can change to wrench and pup it before it blow it but is lame to se that. 

 

When I face a medic,  I know my chances are almost 0 as with my  ping and a one shot rifle to a dancing medic is very hard to win, I try to use same,  rifle, pistol and knife,  I only use expacks if are more than one enemy shooting at me and at least i can help team kiling more than one enemy and all tmes I die too.

 

I vote NO to expack as primary weapon.


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#14 Zap Rowsdower

Posted 09 September 2015 - 12:52 PM

i would be happy knowing there is a special place in hell for the hopping expackers. and yeah,its sour grapes because i cant do it.

:rofl2:


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#15 Angerfist

Posted 09 September 2015 - 01:06 PM

i would be happy knowing there is a special place in hell for the hopping expackers. and yeah,its sour grapes because i cant do it.

:rofl2:

 

I love you


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#16 Steve2112

Posted 09 September 2015 - 01:40 PM

i would be happy knowing there is a special place in hell for the hopping expackers. and yeah,its sour grapes because i cant do it.

:rofl2:

 

 

Well...good point there. Guess we'll both have to practice more so WE can have a special place in hell too!

 

However...I do subscribe to just because you can...doesn't mean you should. Would I sit there like the guy last night racking up 157 kills by camping an uncap spawn point with tank? I don't THINK it's against the rules....but....not all that cool either. :shrug:


 

i would be happy knowing there is a special place in hell for the hopping expackers. and yeah,its sour grapes because i cant do it.

:rofl2:

 

I love you

 

 

 

Sounds like you're not in favor of changing self damage for expackers? 



#17 Captain John H. Miller

Posted 09 September 2015 - 01:44 PM

i would be happy knowing there is a special place in hell for the hopping expackers. and yeah,its sour grapes because i cant do it.

:rofl2:

 

I believe when Dante wrote Inferno in the 14th century it is described that they will end up in the 10th circle of hell:

 

gallery_9358_233_76063.png


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#18 Zap Rowsdower

Posted 09 September 2015 - 01:50 PM

i knew i should have read that book. playing the video game skipped that part.


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#19 FunkMastaSpaz

Posted 09 September 2015 - 03:24 PM

I hear Satan himself uses expacks as primary.


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#20 Steve2112

Posted 09 September 2015 - 05:10 PM

 

i would be happy knowing there is a special place in hell for the hopping expackers. and yeah,its sour grapes because i cant do it.

:rofl2:

 

I believe when Dante wrote Inferno in the 14th century it is described that they will end up in the 10th circle of hell:

 

gallery_9358_233_76063.png

 

 

 

 

 

I'm kinduv a hoarder...and that's FAR to close to expackers for my taste. I need to find another evil.....limbo or perhaps lustful would do.




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