20 replies to this topic

[Hairy Russian Dude]

I waited a little while to continue my rabble. Gave the voting a chance and while I still support the move, I haven't lucked out and seen the perks of it personally yet. Even now, I have logged in to the usual low pop Market.

So I'll crack my knuckles and begin!

 

Today I have chosen to pick on the length of rounds.

I'm not going to make statements like "most players" or anything of the sort with regards to what I have to say, but I do ask that you at least consider how many out there may be in the same boat. Admin have pointed out here that unfortunately, many players do not make their voice heard. While it isn't a concrete rule, I had it beat into me while working in the service industry that on average, 70% of people who have a negative experience will say nothing and 30% of those people simply do not return. I got the memo there and would strive to solve problems before hearing it from a client. Just another point to consider.

Now my personal story for you...

 

1942 came out when I was 13. My friends and I would perform menial tasks like mowing lawns to scrape together $20 to go to the university computer arcade and play 1942 all afternoon. Computers weren't cheap enough for low-medium income families yet, let alone the "monster" computer needed at the time to run 1942. We did this year round, work for a few bucks to spend hours playing a game. Fast forward to a couple years later, and I'm legal working age. Earned enough to buy a used computer and a copy of 1942. Work came and went and I had many evenings free to play many rounds at a time. I would even skip school some days to sit on Moongamers all day (believe it or not I've been around since you had moonman t shirts). Days like that, I experienced everything the game had to offer. Every map was played in every mode. I even remember hopping on a less desirable server, checking on Moon's servers (plural there!) once in awhile to wait for an opening to get in. It never mattered what map was on, as I was there for the long haul and my favorites would pass through multiple times that session. Fast forward again a few years and I'm out of high school, working full time, with a lady and her daughter in my life. I still had semi frequent nights where I could stay up until the wee hours gaming out, but they were getting stretched out a little bit. Another few years later, I moved on from jobs and found a career. I'm now living with this lady and her daughter. Her daughter's school events and extracurricular activities are part of my life now too. Game nights are still around semi regularly, but gone are the days of playing until 5 or 6AM. These types of nights are rare. Fast forward to the present. I made it as a journeyman electrician in a labor intensive field. Married the lady and had another child, with yet another in the oven. Am getting very close to the big 30, and my body is starting to feel a lack of sleep. My game time has become extremely limited. Adulting kicked it into high gear. Even if I get a random EDO and the house to myself for a day, I've got something to fix, laundry to do, yardwork to catch up on... The only real time I have to game is most evenings for a brief window before I go to bed. I always, always, always check out Moon first. But with a short timeframe to play, I have to pass on my usual login of a low pop Market round being ran. The very odd time I have a good chunk of gametime and a decent pop is on a map I'm not crazy about, I will hang out for a little bit in hopes that more join. But generally, I'm picking what will be more immersive for the half hour - an hour I may have.

Thats me. I will not speak for a single other player here. I just ask that you think about this story. We've all grown up since the game was released.

I'll keep this portion short and sweet. You seem to be leaning towards creating long rounds and I personally find this problematic. 45 minute timers, extensions (which have been beat to death in the forums yes, but still live), high ticket counts, uncaps being modded into maps like Berlin (we cant even cap out a map to move on if no admin are around), flags spread out, even ctf (which is my personal favorite) seems to have a high flag count, experimenting with weapon nerfing, heavy equipment like boats almost instantly respawning, limited map choices... its like you're trying to force players into long drawn out battles. This idea gets supported by some of the admin comments from time to time as well. "well if players would cap in this order this would work... well if players didn't run jeeps into tanks and had tank battles instead this would work... etc." Except there isn't the population for long epic battles anymore, and you can't force a play style.
 

I feel you would be much better off shooting for a turnover in maps. Bring back the classic Berlin. Axis gets capped out in 5 minutes? Whatever. It will be on again. Or run it back to back if players want it. Shorten the round time to a half hour, or drop the ticket count. I could live with CTF 24/7 but even I will say, drop the flag count to 5 on the few times you do run it. Ren has touched on burnout before so I won't get too into it, but he has a point.

 

Take all this as you will. Make changes or stay the course.
My personal view though: I do not want to play 5 on 5 Market that will not even end before I have to go to bed.

 

 

[Spare Parts]

ok , 70% of people who have had a negative experience will say nothing....

 

70% of what?  Well in order to continue this conversation, I'm going to assign a number based on a really good showing of players.  This Saturday, while I was Admin'ing, we had about 30.  So with 30 players, let's say half had a negative experience.  Seems a little high but I am willing to entertain the notion that Moongamers  doesn't run their server very well.  Out of those 15 who had a negative experience, 70%, or  10.5 people, will say nothing, and 4.5 will not return. this really doesn't hold water, because it doesn't give any percentage for those who WILL definitely say something and still come back to play day after day.  This isn't a retail setting and trying to use rules from a shoe store you used to work at in your teens doesn't apply here.  BUT, this is not a dismissal  straight out of hand, I see you are really trying to say something here.  The problem with using percentages in making this point is, someone like myself will not just accept what was said because it has numbers assigned to it.  Some ass like me will actually do the math, and I hate math.  I don't want to harp on a flawed example, but it doesn't help your point.

 

Your life sounds great and I do not want to appear to belittle it in any manner.  The only comment I will make is that, the information you shared about your age when you started playing is very telling in and of itself.  If I had played this game when I was as young as you, or if I needed to work to earn money to buy a computer and a copy of 1942, I too would have very strong feeling for this game.  It would matter to me and make me sad at the state it is in now.  This is not just a game for you, this is a part of your life that will never be that good again.  This game mirrors the youth that is gone.  It is now replaced by a wife, 3 kids and an electrician job.  In my opinion that is a wonderful trade off.  If you play chess you probably think you know where I'm going with this.  Most will think I am going to say, you can't go home again, or the past is in the past, those are accurate and the obvious conclusions.  However, I am trying to convey something a little different.  If this game had the same amount of people playing now as it did in its heyday, if there were the same amount of servers, and the same number of people willing to put in the time to Admin and not just wear the tag, if all those things were the case, I surmise we wouldn't have to work at all to keep players interested. None of that is the case and we do have to work at it.  We have to work with what we have, we have to work within our restraints and without the large pool of people available 15 plus years ago.  I'm not even talking about Admins, I'm talking about the people behind the scenes no one sees but we can't do without.  Those people are irreplaceable nowadays and we are fortunate to have kept the ones we do have.  Their time is also at a premium, they also are changing diapers or dropping kids off a school, or maybe running their own business.  Whatever time they can spend here with us, creating a place to play a 15 year old game is amazing, and crazy that they would even bother.   This is what we have, this is where we are, it should be enjoyed for still being here but it should be understood and accepted that we are playing on borrowed time.  

 

To your specific point of maps being run too long.  Maps get extended if it is building a population, maps get extended if its a tie or close game, maps get extended if requested by players, map extensions happen and they are going to continue.  When a map ends people leave.  Say we had 30 people playing, as soon as that map ends 5-10 people will leave. I am not making those number up, that is what happens.  From my viewpoint, I would rather keep a round of Market Garden going long and try to keep as many players playing for as long as possible, so that when you do get done putting kids to bed, you have the most people available to play with/against.  That's the goal anyway, doesn't always pan out, and sometimes it is probably just luck when we have a decent pop enjoying the map and time.  

 

As for the map voting, we are providing a voice for players to let us know what maps they would like to see in rotation.  Some of the votes are from people who don't play or play very little.  The voting right now, shows that Invasion of Philippines, might make the rotation.  I love that map, I would like to play it more, but it does require enough people to make it playable.  I am not looking forward to Admin'ing when that map comes around.  It almost seems our desire to hear and satisfy players will actually work to our determent soon. I am not saying I know it all, but I will tell you, if I had not intervened tonight and skipped Battle of the Bulge, the server would have been dead at 7p PST.  I did skip it and put Market Garden in its place.  the 10 - 15 players that stayed enjoyed another 75 minutes of play.  Yes I did extend when asked by a player.  We had an uber pilot in the game, which was annoying because it meant we died a lot, but all but one stayed and I believed enjoyed themselves.  The one that left made it clear what he thought about that pilot, and Giant if you're reading this, next time I see you I'm going to kick you retroactively for your language. What I am trying to say is, please vote and then please play.  If you're not going to play, don't bother voting. (Sorry HRD this has less to do with you and everything to do with others) 

 

  The passion you and others feel for this game is out of proportion to the reality of the situation 15 years later.  Please continue to make suggestions, remain vigilant in your desire for Moongamers to be the best it can be, but temper that passion with a dose of reality.

[pinchythelobster]

Thanks for your feedback Harry. I thought it was brought up in a mature and professional manner. When I extend time, I usually ask the players prior to extending (exceptions are requests given while on TS). You're right, usually I get 1 or 2 responses which is not enough to deduce what the majority of the players want on that round. So then it's hard - do we keep it on that map and try to build pop or move on to a map that may or may not build pop? The same percentage of responses occurs when asking for suggestions for next maps. And I get it, text flies on and off the screen quickly so I think most don't see it.

 

I'm new here so I can't answer questions about map mods and such. If you're on, suggest maps for next round.

 

I encourage you to continue to provide feedback and join on us on TS. Believe me, I have the biggest girl voice you can have but we have fun and it would be nice to get to know people. I'm sure Miller is sick of hearing me say I'm behind him, turn-around, etc... lol....

 

Lastly, being a step-dad(parent) is a tough thing to do. If you ever need to vent about anything, hit me up and I'd be happy to listen.

[Hairy Russian Dude]

Spare,

You hate math, so by all means don't do it. It drives me nuts when you guys have responses like that. You and the admin team are intelligent people, if you see the point, please commentate on it instead. No, you are not losing 4.5 people per night. Your team are correct in stating that many don't speak up though, and while more players should, it is likely to stay that way unfortunately. Also consider how many have just flat out left in the past few years due to the speed of change around here and generally not being happy with the server. As stated in my initial post, I am not happy with my constant log in to low pop Market but I haven't simply pulled Moon off my favorites list and said "screw it". I'm still here rabbling and getting into arguments with you guys, how many just gave up on all that? Moon is, and always has been, slow to adopt change. I don't know if it is the corporate structure or what, but things generally take a long time to get implemented if at all.

 

The talent on your crew is insane. Frankly I think there is too much modesty on their part. They should absolutely step forward once in awhile and state "I am the genius that created the dual flag Market CTF" or whatever the case may be. Take the credit, it is deserved. However, this actually adds to the frustration (for me at least). You guys have the talent on board to pretty well do anything with a map. This talent is directed towards making the rounds longer, which I again think is a problem.

 

Extensions specifically have been beat to death so I won't back and forth with you on this. You have your views, some of us have our views, if you want to be a 75 minute Market server, by all means do so. They are only one part of the overall "long round" issue.

 

Spare I will flat out state I am 100% behind you on your voting comment. However, I do not want to criticize the idea too much. I cannot stress how awesome it is that bond took to giving players a say and did it so quickly. Yes, there are some flaws. Phil is my favorite CQ map, but I agree that you can't just run it and have it work. Likewise with Bulge (which is probably my runner up favorite, especially Moon's with the hill flag added). I am one of the players who voted and hasn't been on in weeks. We now go back to the logging into low pop market. I have full intention of playing, and would certainly jump on a map I voted for, but they aren't around during my playtime. I can't help this. Flawed or not, bonds intentions and swift actions need to be supported here. It is a great attitude.

[Hairy Russian Dude]

pinchy,

Know that I understand your position on the lack of responses. There is no magic solution to that one other than to try things out.

"suggest maps for next round". I can't, I usually don't have enough time to play to even see the next round.

Thanks for the offer on venting bud. I've been around with that kid for 10 years though. As far as I'm concerned shes as much mine as anybody's.

[bondmaster]

I don't think the length of time is an issue. I think its a symptom of a larger problem, which is a declining population. 45 minutes is usually not enough IF the server has a large population. 45 minutes lasts forever if you are on a large map and there are only 5 to 10 players on the server. 

 

Maybe MG has gotten a little stale because we use it so often. Its used often because it is one of the most popular maps of the game. It offers a little something for everyone. Its only downside is that its a larger map and its hard when you only have 5 to 10 players in it. With that being said, maybe we should try and use a smaller map as the default map so it can cater to a smaller population. Perhaps we may even take a gander at CTF or TDM, What about adding bots?

 

Rather than focusing on the symptoms, focus on the problem. We need to build population and we need to make sure we stabilize what we already have. The game is 15+ years old and we need to look at ways to continue reinventing the game to keep it fresh. That is where modding comes in. 

 

My 2 cents

[Hairy Russian Dude]

bond,

 

My entire initial post is a disagreement that length of time is not an issue. All my rabbles are an offering of a player's perspective.
I stick to it, I won't state anything as a fact, but I would have a hard time believing that I am the only player past present or future who encounters these issues. I wish there was more forum participation to gauge opinion...

Market becoming stale has been brought up around here. I agree to that.
I've brought up CTF, TDM, and bots multiple times. You have my support on that. (side note, try using Berlin CTF more. Just replace the tanks with jeeps/apcs)
I've read and acknowledged the admin's stance on using Market many times over, I get it. But perhaps instead of the mentality of "we need to build pop", try working with the pop you have at the time.
The other night I popped in for Wake. Allied held the island, tanks at each flag. It wasn't any fun. Boat/plane shows up in horizon, take it out, repeat. Timer extended as well. In my opinion, rather than wait out a boring round in hopes more show up, run something better suited for who is already there.
I do believe the Moon team has a ton of experience at running this place. One thing you guys surely have to have down pat by now is trends in population. I'm sure you can pinpoint the very hour 30 people are going to show up. Run Market or something at that time instead.

[Spare Parts]

Spare,

You hate math, so by all means don't do it. It drives me nuts when you guys have responses like that. You and the admin team are intelligent people, if you see the point, please commentate on it instead. No, you are not losing 4.5 people per night. Your team are correct in stating that many don't speak up though, and while more players should, it is likely to stay that way unfortunately. Also consider how many have just flat out left in the past few years due to the speed of change around here and generally not being happy with the server. As stated in my initial post, I am not happy with my constant log in to low pop Market but I haven't simply pulled Moon off my favorites list and said "screw it". I'm still here rabbling and getting into arguments with you guys, how many just gave up on all that? Moon is, and always has been, slow to adopt change. I don't know if it is the corporate structure or what, but things generally take a long time to get implemented if at all.

 

The talent on your crew is insane. Frankly I think there is too much modesty on their part. They should absolutely step forward once in awhile and state "I am the genius that created the dual flag Market CTF" or whatever the case may be. Take the credit, it is deserved. However, this actually adds to the frustration (for me at least). You guys have the talent on board to pretty well do anything with a map. This talent is directed towards making the rounds longer, which I again think is a problem.

 

Extensions specifically have been beat to death so I won't back and forth with you on this. You have your views, some of us have our views, if you want to be a 75 minute Market server, by all means do so. They are only one part of the overall "long round" issue.

 

Spare I will flat out state I am 100% behind you on your voting comment. However, I do not want to criticize the idea too much. I cannot stress how awesome it is that bond took to giving players a say and did it so quickly. Yes, there are some flaws. Phil is my favorite CQ map, but I agree that you can't just run it and have it work. Likewise with Bulge (which is probably my runner up favorite, especially Moon's with the hill flag added). I am one of the players who voted and hasn't been on in weeks. We now go back to the logging into low pop market. I have full intention of playing, and would certainly jump on a map I voted for, but they aren't around during my playtime. I can't help this. Flawed or not, bonds intentions and swift actions need to be supported here. It is a great attitude.

Hairy you gave a word problem with numbers that didn't mean anything.  I was merely trying to help you make a salient point.  Give examples that mean something, then people like me can't dismiss you.  As I said, despite your example with the percent's, I could hear you trying to say something concrete.  I tried to address that in a most long winded way.  you are getting better at getting your point across, anyone can see that you are trying. If they have read any of your other posts, then they can see the effort, I appreciate it.  Of course I don't think you were trying to say we are losing 4.5 people a day, what you are saying is to be proactive, a very popular buzzword around here.  However, I am dead set against using the talent and energy we still do have, on things that will bear little or no fruit.  Proactive, Try, Change, these are all fine things to say, a very different challenge to put them to practical use.

 

We must change or die, I agree, but I am not holding hands with anyone while we walk into chopper blades, singing We are the World.  Change yes, be proactive yes, try yes, just have a plan and a goal and see it through, that is what is needed, not throwing things at wall and seeing what sticks.

 

I am trying incredibly hard to keep an open mind, so much so my head is splitting.  Sincerely Hairy thank you for your thoughts and opinions, I will personal try to implement any of them that make sense to our situation. 

[Hairy Russian Dude]

Spare,

I'm with you on setting your sights on a specific goal. But in fairness, some of the mods seem to be thrown against a wall. To be honest, some of the attempts I can't even fathom what the mindset was in thinking they would go over well. To credit your team, this is as much a player problem as a modder problem. The lack of voices in the forums certainly leaves you guys guessing for the most part.

You do get some feedback here though, albeit from mostly the same people.

 

The attempts at changing posting style is duly noted. I also appreciate your efforts on being far more constructive in the threads I've seen you jump into lately.

[Angerfist]

I wish there would be more skillful opposition inside of the game and less negativity towards the mods and the timer changes. In fact, the game (and the mods) are what YOU (the players) make out of it.

[HARRY TRIGGER]

I wish there would be more skillful opposition inside of the game and less negativity towards the mods and the timer changes. In fact, the game (and the mods) are what YOU (the players) make out of it.

 

I usually stay out of these debates. Butttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.

 

Anger offered up a word problem which very much plays a BIG role in this server.

If you add up the red highlite to the burnt orange highlite, you get the final answer in the enlarged font.

Red + Burnt Orange= Large Fonts.

This will never become a factor until this http://www.moongamer...66120&p=710879 is taken care of.

One can not become skilled at anything if you can not attain the time to hone your skills.

It really is very simple.

If you need to go to single player to get the plane/tank infantry/engy in, then you will have empty servers.

Just a thought, because I found Anger's post actually covers both these threads.

[Spare Parts]

 

I wish there would be more skillful opposition inside of the game and less negativity towards the mods and the timer changes. In fact, the game (and the mods) are what YOU (the players) make out of it.

 

I usually stay out of these debates. Butttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.

 

Anger offered up a word problem which very much plays a BIG role in this server.

If you add up the red highlite to the burnt orange highlite, you get the final answer in the enlarged font.

Red + Burnt Orange= Large Fonts.

This will never become a factor until this http://www.moongamer...66120&p=710879 is taken care of.

One can not become skilled at anything if you can not attain the time to hone your skills.

It really is very simple.

If you need to go to single player to get the plane/tank infantry/engy in, then you will have empty servers.

Just a thought, because I found Anger's post actually covers both these threads.

 

i don't know what to make of this.  I would first like to dispute your claim that you like to stay out of things.  1.436 posts say otherwise.  You don't stay out of things, in fact you like to throw in non sequiturs, that I assume are designed to be humorous and break the tension. This post seems to be your attempt at clever, it's ok Harry, not everyone can pull it off.  So, are you saying, until the uber-pilot issue is "taken care of", no one can become more skilled?  Is your premise assuming that the only way to get better is to go single player and if you are practicing on single player, you won't be in the server?  Are you saying that this post about extending time somehow ties in with Angerfist, saying he wished players would be better at the game and complain less?  Harry if I have to ask this many questions about your post, then you made a bad post.  I would very much like to know what you are trying to say, perhaps my brain is getting old and slow, so can you dumb this down for me, and maybe just say what you mean.  No colored fonts, no links, just say it. thanks.

[HARRY TRIGGER]

Maybe before you post anything more. You go back thru my 1436 + 1 now posts and then get back.

I read my post I see no questions. 

Can you please point out to me the scale you are presently using to determine good posts and bad post ?

^^^^ That is a question. ^^^^^

 

Just a sidebar: 1437 posts over 12 1/2 years roughly 4,620 days isn't really that many.

[Angerfist]

Don't underestimate Harry, Spare. I did in the past and I was very wrong.

[Spare Parts]

Good post.

 

One that makes a clear point, poses a question that can be easily answered without asking for clarification, or is constructive in it's criticism.

 

Bad post.

 

Any post that isn't a good post as described above.

 

Its too bad you didn't take the time to remake your point in a way I could comprehend, or connect the dots for me, which I clearly need to have done.  I would have liked to known what you were trying to say.  Also help with me with this statement.  " I read my post and see no questions"   ​, are you saying your point was so clear that I should not have asked questions about it? 

 

I will freely admit I did not take the time to go through all of your posts, I based my comments on all I have read since I have been here and about 10 I went back and looked at. 

 

sidebar. are you telling me you make a post on average of 1 every 3 days for 12 1/2 years?  I suck at math so that number can't be right.  

[pinchythelobster]

 

This will never become a factor until this http://www.moongamer...66120&p=710879 is taken care of.

One can not become skilled at anything if you can not attain the time to hone your skills.

It really is very simple.

 

 

I think I got one point out of this which is how can you get good at flying if the opposing team has two leet pilots that bomb everything and won't let any planes up! Is that correct?

The only way you can get really good at this game, and most things in life, is playing against better players; which means single player won't help you. If you wish to learn some flying, let me know and I'd be happy to fly around with you. I'm not the best nor even that good but I'd be happy to help.

[HARRY TRIGGER]

You are correct pinchy on the first part.

I know Anger likes to play with players that are serious.

I was trying to point out just what you seen in my post. No time in equipment=less skills.

Some will less likely want certain modded maps and less time extensions.

I really don't know what Spare was trying to drum up?

I will go back to "throw in non sequiturs,"

Because I for one play to just play

And as far as good or bad posts, I really don't care how mine are graded.

[Angerfist]

You are correct pinchy on the first part.

I know Anger likes to play with players that are serious.

I was trying to point out just what you seen in my post. No time in equipment=less skills.

Some will less likely want certain modded maps and less time extensions.

I really don't know what Spare was trying to drum up?

I will go back to "throw in non sequiturs,"

Because I for one play to just play

And as far as good or bad posts, I really don't care how mine are graded.

 

I prefer the more "competitive" approach to the game, but I enjoy the "funny goofing" also. There were enough crazy actions which made me laugh.

 

But it's about the balance of both.

 

When I see players who only goof around complaining about the "leet" which is ruining the fun, I have to disagree strongly. It's not the better guys fault that they got better than others. Same counts for those who complain about the "tank fatties" or "plane fairies" "ruining the fun", while a lot of those players do nothing else but raping mains with vehicles as soon as they have the chance. That's just having double standards.

 

I see a lot of players making the same mistakes since years while using equipment. For example, it's not so hard to understand that presenting your front armor to the opponent in a tank vs tank fight gives you way more chances to win than offering your side or back. Still, a lot of players prefer to yell "yeah right I hit you three times but you kill me with one shot" instead of understanding the most simple game basics. There is no magic involved. Adapt and overcome instead of complain and whine.

 

Pretty off topic post, but hey ;-)

[Hairy Russian Dude]

I thought of something to add to this.
75 minutes game time, tickets that won't bleed out in that time, and uncaps on both teams... there is no real goal. Yes when the 75 minutes is up a winning team is declared, but generally with these parameters you are playing just for the sake of playing. Maybe this is cool with most, maybe it bores some. Just another consideration.

[Captain John H. Miller]

 you are playing just for the sake of playing. 

 

People play for different reasons?