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No wonder average players has dropped to 8 avg. per 24 hrs.


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#1 Renlist

Posted 30 September 2017 - 07:25 PM

1. Extending your  fave map with planes  3 times beyond the normal 45 minutes, then next forcing Market Garden on everyone  twice within 3 hours, then extending that map 3 more times beyond the 45 minutes with the end score often not even close.

 

2. Kicking someone who calls you out on it.

 

3. Being idle for a mere 4 minutes at the start of a match and getting grudge kicked while their faves are idle the entire fucking match and don't get kicked.  

 

4. Playing the little remote control god on Mt. Olympus and changing maps and times while you yourself aren't even present playing the matches!

 

5. So called mods joining the server once in a fucking blue moon and itching to use their awesome small prick power.

 

Average number of players per 24 hours now at 8 and dropping.  

No wonder there hasn't been an enjoyable match in ages and the server population is dropping.  Pathetic last gasp tweaking of matches.

 

Fuck off your not playing,  but sitting at your fucking PC meddling in the map order and times. Wanker!

 

The only core players who show up now are those obsessed regulars attempting to achieve top 10 rankings or better.   

 

 

One last thing...90% of posters here having played the game for a mere few hours total the last 6 months.   



#2 Spare Parts

Posted 30 September 2017 - 07:39 PM

1. Extending your  fave map with planes  3 times beyond the normal 45 minutes, then next forcing Market Garden on everyone  twice within 3 hours, then extending that map 3 more times beyond the 45 minutes with the end score often not even close.

 

2. Kicking someone who calls you out on it.

 

3. Being idle for a mere 4 minutes at the start of a match and getting grudge kicked while their faves are idle the entire fucking match and don't get kicked.  

 

4. Playing the little remote control god on Mt. Olympus and changing maps and times while you yourself aren't even present playing the matches!

 

5. So called mods joining the server once in a fucking blue moon and itching to use their awesome small prick power.

 

Average number of players per 24 hours now at 8 and dropping.  

No wonder there hasn't been an enjoyable match in ages and the server population is dropping.  Pathetic last gasp tweaking of matches.

 

Fuck off your not playing,  but sitting at your fucking PC meddling in the map order and times. Wanker!

 

The only core players who show up now are those obsessed regulars attempting to achieve top 10 rankings or better.   

 

 

One last thing...90% of posters here having played the game for a mere few hours total the last 6 months.   

Some of your points are wrong, for reasons such as you are just ignorant, and other reasons like, your conclusions are flawed because your data is unsupported.  Other points are opinion, and those aren't wrong they are just your opinion.  I want to address the point you are making but have no idea you're making.....  You don't like playing here.  That point has been made loud and clear. Perhaps its time for you to go. 



#3 Twilight

Posted 30 September 2017 - 08:06 PM

God you assume a lot. Yes I kicked you, for this.

9/30/2017 19:06:15 : # [Global] Renlist: watch as clock gets extended   then  Market Garden next
9/30/2017 19:09:18 : User Twilight kicked player Renlist (a3a5e6b016dec9cf7a6314945ea36e27) for learn to be quiet pls.

Seeing you say anything that isn't revolved around trying to spark dissent is the exception. Market also wasn't set next, but it probably should have been. There is an enormous amount of things I could 'call you out' on for being wrong with your assumptions, but I'd like it to stay clear who - to use your words, the prick is. Learn to shut up.

That said, well done bringing your most recent rant here. Had it been attempted in the server, you would have an entirely different subject to type unending grievances over.

 



#4 Colonel Tavington

Posted 30 September 2017 - 08:49 PM

I'm just here for the Bud Light...but I'm loving it.  Have a rum 'n Coke, Bud.



#5 mexican eskimo

Posted 30 September 2017 - 09:16 PM

oh my.



#6 Hairy Russian Dude

Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:27 AM

Allow me reiterate Ren's many posts in nicer words...

 

The shotcallers have no problem ignoring posts, or jumping in to say "you're wrong" but don't offer explanation.
Why are you letting the server die? Your response is likely "we're not". Elaborate.
Why aren't you making some drastic changes to suite the declining population? If you think you are please explain your game plan.
Why extend large maps like Market when the pop is low?
Why do you hang on to the idea that Market is a seeder map? Please show us a graph or something of the population explosion when you run it.
Why don't you run smaller maps more often?
Why don't you run CTF for the low pop?
Are you tweaking maps based on forum suggestion to help improve gameplay?
Why are you still kicking for insignificant reasons when there is no player base to fill that spot?

Feel free to answer all these here and now.

I've played here for years and I like you guys, but I'll flat out say its making me kind of sad to see you put North America in the ground with this game.


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#7 Grassy

Posted 01 October 2017 - 03:45 AM

I think extending any map beyond an hour is a "fail"  People look at the timer and say wow it's almost over and they have a decent score..and it was a good fight...and then the timer gets extended and then people leave...non productive....sometimes it works ...most of the time it doesn't.   I have seen this time and time again...the only ones the want additional time are the ones with the high scores near 100.

 

 

Can I get an AMEN?..lol

 

I do love the server and the recent "customer service" change and admins attending to players needs...Applause!  

 

Just a few adjustments needed,, IMO thats all :)


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#8 Colonel Tavington

Posted 01 October 2017 - 07:21 AM

It's a balancing act.  There are times when I enter the game during a map favorite of mine (Market and Bocage) there's only a couple of minutes left and a less than favorite is next and often I won't stick around for the next one depending on what it is. So I'm glad that the map is extended and I get at least 17 minutes of a favorite map.  If I leave a map (including favorites) when it's extended I was planning to leave anyway.


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#9 Spare Parts

Posted 01 October 2017 - 11:44 AM

I think extending any map beyond an hour is a "fail"  People look at the timer and say wow it's almost over and they have a decent score..and it was a good fight...and then the timer gets extended and then people leave...non productive....sometimes it works ...most of the time it doesn't.   I have seen this time and time again...the only ones the want additional time are the ones with the high scores near 100.

 

 

Can I get an AMEN?..lol

 

I do love the server and the recent "customer service" change and admins attending to players needs...Applause!  

 

Just a few adjustments needed,, IMO thats all :)

I think extending any map beyond an hour is a "fail"  People look at the timer and say wow it's almost over and they have a decent score..and it was a good fight...and then the timer gets extended and then people leave...non productive....sometimes it works ...most of the time it doesn't.   I have seen this time and time again...the only ones the want additional time are the ones with the high scores near 100.

​you are right, someone who is fixated on their score or getting an imaginary medal, will have problems with time extensions.  my observations have been the opposite of yours, most of the time it works and sometimes it doesn't.  also there are players who ask for more time no matter what the score.  in fact most people who ask for more time seem to be those who join with only a few minutes left in the game.  if its been a good or close match then the game gets extended.  Just because something happens in the game a player doesn't  like or disagree with, does not mean it was a direct insult to that player.

 

Can I get an AMEN?..lol

NO

 

I do love the server and the recent "customer service" change and admins attending to players needs...Applause!

I have noticed that too.

 

Just a few adjustments needed,, IMO thats all :)

I agree, nothing is ever complete or good enough that it can't be improved. 


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#10 Spare Parts

Posted 01 October 2017 - 11:56 AM

Allow me reiterate Ren's many posts in nicer words...

 

The shotcallers have no problem ignoring posts, or jumping in to say "you're wrong" but don't offer explanation.
Why are you letting the server die? Your response is likely "we're not". Elaborate.
Why aren't you making some drastic changes to suite the declining population? If you think you are please explain your game plan.
Why extend large maps like Market when the pop is low?
Why do you hang on to the idea that Market is a seeder map? Please show us a graph or something of the population explosion when you run it.
Why don't you run smaller maps more often?
Why don't you run CTF for the low pop?
Are you tweaking maps based on forum suggestion to help improve gameplay?
Why are you still kicking for insignificant reasons when there is no player base to fill that spot?

Feel free to answer all these here and now.

I've played here for years and I like you guys, but I'll flat out say its making me kind of sad to see you put North America in the ground with this game.

You don't need to speak for Renlist.  Also I can't help but notice that you slid in your favorite topic, CTF.  Demanding answers is not the way to go, not with me anyway.  I wonder why people think that they are owed answers from a game server they are allowed to play on.  A server run by volunteers and donations, a server with its own rules and guidelines. A server where Admins have to go through training, just so they can field complaints from players who think they know everything but don't.  HRD demanding graphs and explanations about things you have limited knowledge about is foolish, its even more foolish if you haven't realized your approach to these matters is not working. 



#11 Hairy Russian Dude

Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:59 PM

You don't need to speak for Renlist.  I do not speak for him at all. I have the same questions but decided to present them without swearing or cutting you guys down.

Also I can't help but notice that you slid in your favorite topic, CTF.  I have never ran a server and will absolutely admit I know nothing about how things work on your end, but I will always think that you guys not running CTF during low pop is a wrong move and I will always be bewildered why you reject it so hard.

Demanding answers is not the way to go, not with me anyway.  I demanded nothing. There is absolutely no hostility in my post. If you read it with such a tone then that is your hang up.

I wonder why people think that they are owed answers from a game server they are allowed to play on.  A server run by volunteers and donations, a server with its own rules and guidelines. A server where Admins have to go through training, just so they can field complaints from players who think they know everything but don't. Some see obvious ways to improve game play that is not being implemented and are curious why. Some do not want to see the game die and voice these things rather than just leave.

HRD demanding graphs and explanations about things you have limited knowledge about is foolish, its even more foolish if you haven't realized your approach to these matters is not working. There is the D word again. I did no such thing. And you also supported my point on avoidance to any questions. "You have limited knowledge..." yet no explanation as to what exactly I'm missing here.


 

 

I stress to you Spare, there is no hostility here. In my eyes I see the dwindling population as a problem while you guys do not seem to.
If you guys want to keep on the same path and keep dodging any questions the player base has, you are more than welcome to. I admit I will give up eventually, but for now this is my all time favorite game and I'm trying to understand why you guys are letting it die.


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#12 Rubulator

Posted 01 October 2017 - 06:25 PM

Population is down across the servers. It's not a Moon thing...

Having worked in Tech Customer service for most of my career. I can say without hesitation, Moon is the closest to corporate structure that you will experience in non profit gaming organizations. 
​It isn't perfect, but nothing is.

​Each one of us would do things a little... or drastically different. It's like anything else.. Speak your mind for change. Maybe it will get traction, maybe not. If you don't like it... you can go... and/or You can start your own server.

​Outbursts like the OP are unacceptable in my opinion. I give credit to those who he is lashing out at for not deleting his forum access. 

PeAcE ... Rub


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#13 Hairy Russian Dude

Posted 01 October 2017 - 09:53 PM

Rub,

 

With all due respect, its the "like it or leave" attitude that frustrates me. You and I both know it isn't at all realistic to start one's own server anymore. Moon is THE North American server and if Moon dies, the game dies on this continent.

Yes, the game dies on its own due to age and its frankly amazing that anyone still plays today. But there seems to be no fight to keep people vested here. EA brought back friggin' map voting of all things to help with keeping interest in map rotation and it worked! Evening game participation grew significantly afterwards once players had the option to choose what they were in the mood to play. Is it perfect? No. You still get mid match switches that are annoying once in awhile. But it helped a lot. Now don't take that literally as "moon needs map vote", it is simply an example of making a drastic change to save the server.

Back to the question avoidance...
Miller has come out a couple of times to shed light on the admin side of decision making and it has been appreciated. More transparency would go a long way.

When someone asks "Why don't you do this (insert any idea here)?", an explanation of "we are discussing that option", "we cannot implement that because..." etc. would go over much smoother instead of "like it or leave".

 

I think its fair to say I've been active in this community and have been positive. I joined the forums because I wanted to be involved and see the server succeed. Even my disagreements with management have been respectful. I don't WANT to leave.
But I also don't want to play an extended round of 4 on 4 Market (lets not focus on this one map here, its an example of the bigger picture: the way things are currently going). You may not see countless threads on it, but based on the declining population it doesn't seem like a lot of others want to either.


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#14 Captain John H. Miller

Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:28 AM

Here we go again...

 

 

1 Why are you letting the server die? Your response is likely "we're not". Elaborate.
2 Why aren't you making some drastic changes to suite the declining population? If you think you are please explain your game plan.
3 Why extend large maps like Market when the pop is low?
4 Why do you hang on to the idea that Market is a seeder map? Please show us a graph or something of the population explosion when you run it.
5 Why don't you run smaller maps more often?
6 Why don't you run CTF for the low pop?
7 Are you tweaking maps based on forum suggestion to help improve gameplay?
  Why are you still kicking for insignificant reasons when there is no player base to fill that spot?

8 Being idle for a mere 4 minutes at the start of a match and getting grudge kicked while their faves are idle the entire fucking match and don't get kicked. -renlist 2017

Playing the little remote control god on Mt. Olympus and changing maps and times while you yourself aren't even present playing the matches! -renlist 2017

 

1 'Letting' the server die is not the right thing to say. We can't put a gun to someones head that stopped playing (in doesn't play anymore AT ALL) and kindly ask them to start playing again.

2 We've made some drastic changes in the last two years, drastic changes in modding as well; some of the most drastic changes were not welcomed.

3 Usually to either gain players or keep them, by changing maps 9/10 times people stop playing. Either they don't like the next map or have played enough for now. Market is not really a large map, I would compare the effective playing area (the 4 flag area) to Berlin. It is the basecamping aspect that might make it larger. Why not keep playing a round that is very good and intense, even if it might take 2 hours and while doing this gain more players.

4 We are no researchers, so we don't make graphs. This 'idea' comes out of years of experience.

5 There are only 2 small maps I can think of: Berlin and Stalingrad, both almost pure infantry. Pure infantry is usually not too good for high pingers, they can manage though. The main reason I think is they usually don't seed to well. But I am willing to try playing them some more.

6 Some maps are way too big, people come in a map start to whine because we play ctf let's say Battleaxe and they go make a forum post. Going back to the main reason in 5, they can run well though, but you probably have to start with about 30 players.

Yes, we have. If it is a very good and needed suggestion for sure.

The reason for kicking some idlers +- 5 minute into the game is to balance the teams. There are times it is really necessary to kick an idler on the weak side of a game (e.g. Tobruk) is to not let the game end prematurely. Other idlers in a match don't get kicked because they might be the strong side, that side does not need another player. The weak side on the other hand needs an additional player.

9 We might not always be IN the game itself, but usually we have a good understanding of what is happening and what will happen. This is because of experience. We do this to keep the server running and keep the population up or growing. I hope this makes sense. 

 

 

 

 

To be honest Renlist, after all this time I know you, I yet have to see you complete a full round of gameplay (let's set a max of 45mins).


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#15 Grassy

Posted 02 October 2017 - 03:39 AM

All I am saying with the hopes of not starting a war...is when the map timer is extended and people are disconnecting then why continue?  It t'is redundant.


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#16 Hairy Russian Dude

Posted 02 October 2017 - 09:58 PM

Once again thank you for being the voice of management Miller. I truly do respect this about you.

 

- I do feel you guys are letting the server die by not implementing some major change. I'm speaking from experience watching the mainly CTF server I play on go from its last breathes to respectable matches each evening. I have seen what worked there.

- Aside from some modding, I do not see these changes. Rotation has been relatively the same, extensions do not seem to be too popular, Market clears the server, kicks are still being hurled out like the full server days (more on that later). Small changes for sure, but I don't see anything major.

- I'll agree to the size of flag space on Market and comparison to Berlin, but very much disagree with how often that map becomes "intense" with low pop. If we're talking a 40 player night with tickets staying about the same the whole match, then by all means run the tickets out instead of the timer. Consider one thing with extensions though... I think its fair to say many long time players are well out of their teens and into a life of jobs, babies, and responsibility that prevents hours of gametime each night. If you are constantly extending low pop large map games, you are killing any chance of someone with little time jumping on as there is likely only small windows of playtime available. Low pop small map and CTF would be more attractive for someone who only has time for a match or two.

- I don't expect you to make graphs. I have no idea if there is tool available on your end to show population (similar to gametracker?) I will agree with you 100% that Market was the seeder years ago, but now all I see is people bailing when it shows up.
I won't name the admin in this story as the person is irrelevant. But just yesterday ex pack day was coming to an end and the admin asked "aghelia or vanilla?" only one person answered "vanilla". Market shows up, decline in population. I find it crazy to think a person figures Market would be on par in popularity with a once a week map. Anyways, if there is no easy tool to back the claims then so be it.
- I am honestly pumped to see you say you're willing to try. Thats all you guys can do is try and see what works and what doesn't. I think you have a modded Stalingrad with warehouse mains and a Berlin without tanks and nades. Try throwing those into regular rotation for a bit. Or better yet, try Berlin in Market's place as your go to for a bit.
- I might be reading your post wrong, but it sounds like we have polar opposite opinions of CTF. CTF, to me, is suited for a low population. I play on a mainly CTF server and speak from experience here. You start on CTF and once you grow to a sizable population, that is when the large CQ maps come out. You once mentioned something in one of my CTF threads about not having admin around to babysit these matches. C4 on flags and glitching while holding the flag happens on a rare occasion nowadays and I think its easy to handle when an admin isn't around (which your coverage seems to have greatly improved). When they have time, have Posi or Squirrel toss some barbed wire behind glitchy walls, crates, in hangars, etc. As for C4, regs are there to call it out and anyone who wants to help can spawn as an engineer to remove said C4. That is a group effort from the community, not just an admin's job.
- I will take your word for it that suggestions are being considered and implemented. I've said it before and will say it again, I think you should stick a Mod Suggestion thread to collect these ideas and periodically jump in to let us know "hey, we changed X on X map..."

- I see you struck out my kicking comment but I think thats something to discuss. I know why you have your no drugs, politics, etc etc etc rules. But these are not significant reasons for kicking. Anything impeding gameplay, sure, warn or kick. But having somebody auto kicked for saying the word "Obama" should be reconsidered. As stated before, there is no player base left to fill this void. I completely understand your reasoning for the rules, but maybe it is time to loosen them up a bit. Do note that I do not consider this a significant source of player drop, but could certainly help keep the numbers up a bit sometimes.



#17 Grassy

Posted 02 October 2017 - 11:29 PM

I was on Market earlier this evening and instead of extending the timer...Twilight popped in and was attentive to the server's opinion on what map was wanted next...there were no incredible scores and the map ended.  I could not stay for the next map.  However I just wanted to say thanks Mr. T. 


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#18 Twilight

Posted 03 October 2017 - 07:56 AM

I won't name the admin in this story as the person is irrelevant. But just yesterday ex pack day was coming to an end and the admin asked "aghelia or vanilla?" only one person answered "vanilla". Market shows up, decline in population. I find it crazy to think a person figures Market would be on par in popularity with a once a week map. Anyways, if there is no easy tool to back the claims then so be it.

 

I will. Speaking. Let's outline some perceived differences I have on this from you.

 

10/1/2017 21:28:20 : # [Global] (Admin)Twilight: can you guys go for a bit more time on this, and maybe skip 
10/1/2017 21:28:35 : # [Global] Chaliemon(G.B.,Wis): wok  
10/1/2017 21:28:38 : # [Global] Chaliemon(G.B.,Wis): ok  
10/1/2017 21:28:41 : # [Global] (Admin)Twilight: raid next, or do you want to try still squeezing it in 
10/1/2017 21:29:20 : # [Global] Chaliemon(G.B.,Wis): i have 1/2 hour, myself, do whatever, twi 
10/1/2017 21:29:27 : # [Global] Bodie the Dog: crap, two of them now  
10/1/2017 21:29:30 : # [Global] Bodie the Dog: one  
10/1/2017 21:29:54 : # [Axis] (Admin)Twilight: inf to top  
10/1/2017 21:30:27 : # [Global] Olin: damnit  
10/1/2017 21:32:04 : # [Global] GumpFiction: more time?  
10/1/2017 21:32:49 : # [Axis] (Admin)Twilight: !time60

Note there is no forthcoming chorus of "Raid admin!"s here. It's also interesting that you were present, but I don't have chat anywhere from you for a preference like I'd requested. This includes when I asked again later.

10/1/2017 22:04:01 : # [Global] (Admin)Twilight: vanilla next or agheila?  
10/1/2017 22:04:16 : # [Global] The Silver Shroud!: vanilla 
10/1/2017 22:04:47 : # [Global] Chaliemon(G.B.,Wis): 1 4 the team  
10/1/2017 22:04:53 : # [Global] (Admin)Twilight: gg  
10/1/2017 22:04:56 : # [Global] CoffeeAssassin®: gg  
10/1/2017 22:04:59 : # [Global] GumpFiction: gg  
10/1/2017 22:05:02 : # [Global] Chaliemon(G.B.,Wis): it was :)  
10/1/2017 22:05:02 : # [Global] Op Ivory Soap: gg  
10/1/2017 22:05:05 : # [Global] The Silver Shroud!: gg  
10/1/2017 22:05:05 : # [Global] Christine®: gg 

Teamspeak played another role in the decision, with participants there you couldn't see echoing the same course. I recommend you try joining us in it sometime. At present you find a lot of things we do crazy from my reading, Eagles Nest had been the last map people were staying up for in an already decreasing amount of players. If you don't think things can die on the expansions, I doubt you were around when we had only two for a long while on Monte Cassino.

Another thing I keep reading from you is the apparent merit of CTF as a near blanket solution. Running it yesterday on stalingrad, we kept a population of about 8, which then dropped to 6 and less. While ctf can still be fun on low numbers, it's simply not the game mode the majority of people want to play. It will entertain small groups, and the server consequently tends to stay small. The day roughly two hours prior to your initial post in this thread, it killed it for the night. Your other server may react somewhat differently if it has a hard following for that game mode, runs DC, or is the one I'm thinking of that really is more running coop.

Now a question.

 

its making me kind of sad to see you put North America in the ground with this game.

+

I'm trying to understand why you guys are letting it die.

 

Do you have any idea how ridiculously insulting you come across when you say things like these?

It's unlikely my observations on CTF will change your perception of it, particularly if that happens to be your favorite gameplay mode. Statements like quoted above are however probably a good way to get opinions about something else you may be right about disregarded. Largely, things we've known to be a bit more than that already are.

 


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#19 dodgem

Posted 03 October 2017 - 01:05 PM

Here we go again...

 

 

1 Why are you letting the server die? Your response is likely "we're not". Elaborate.
2 Why aren't you making some drastic changes to suite the declining population? If you think you are please explain your game plan.
3 Why extend large maps like Market when the pop is low?
4 Why do you hang on to the idea that Market is a seeder map? Please show us a graph or something of the population explosion when you run it.
5 Why don't you run smaller maps more often?
6 Why don't you run CTF for the low pop?
7 Are you tweaking maps based on forum suggestion to help improve gameplay?
  Why are you still kicking for insignificant reasons when there is no player base to fill that spot?

8 Being idle for a mere 4 minutes at the start of a match and getting grudge kicked while their faves are idle the entire fucking match and don't get kicked. -renlist 2017

Playing the little remote control god on Mt. Olympus and changing maps and times while you yourself aren't even present playing the matches! -renlist 2017

 

5 There are only 2 small maps I can think of: Berlin and Stalingrad, both almost pure infantry. Pure infantry is usually not too good for high pingers, they can manage though. The main reason I think is they usually don't seed to well. But I am willing to try playing them some more.

 

I haven't much to say in this thread because it would be insulting to those who've been around for the past ~12 months and have a good feel for the server, both admins and players alike.  But I would also add to this that Berlin and Stalingrad definitely used to attract a lot of hardcore infantry vets.  The population would increase in the short term but the skill differential between the elite and a lot of the others on our server would lead to a lot of disconnects.


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#20 Hairy Russian Dude

Posted 03 October 2017 - 01:09 PM

Twilight,

I won't put a ton of energy into this one particular situation. But teamspeak is not something I considered, I will give you that and take your word that there was a consensus there. And yes, I could have piped up but did not in this instance.
I do not know why you would think I figure CTF is a blanket solution. I have stated over and over, "low pop solution". Switch over to large map CQ when the population jumps.
I am aware the ex packs can die too. They are more vulnerable if anything because less newcomers will have them. They could also use the CTF touch (some tweaking is necessary on some maps though, but that is an entire different conversation).
You feel insulted.
I will again stress that there is no hostility intended in what I have to say here...
If I wanted to insult you, I would just copy and paste Ren's posts. I am going out of my way to disagree with you in a respectful manner. However, I stick to what I said there. My personal feeling and opinion is that you guys are allowing the server to die by not trying different methods to keep the population up, and I fail to understand why you resist trying new things so much. This thread however is turning positive as I'm gaining some insight as to why you resist (never thought about teamspeak for map opinion, miller shed some light on admin reasoning...).
If you wish to ignore all a person has to say because you do not like one of their vastly different opinions of management style, I find that spiteful.
All sincerity, my opinion is what it is so how would you like me to word it so nobody gets hurt feelings?

"you may be right about"
Lets explore that one a bit more. Has anything I've said struck a cord with you or your counterparts?

I'm here for dialogue, not to attack you. I simply have opposite opinions on what you guys do.
 


dodgem,

 

Thats what I'm saying here, short term increase.
Run until there are enough to open up the many other larger maps.




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