18 replies to this topic

[Perculator]

I've mentioned this the last several times in TS that we've switched to Hobofire, and Lin asked about it the other night, so I figured I'd organize my thoughts here and see what others think.

To sum it up in one sentence: Hobofire is heavily stacked for the Axis side.

I don't believe I've ever...EVER...seen the allies win a round on Hobofire. I've seen the Axis win several times. This is primarily due to map layout and visibility, so far as I can tell. My prime example of someone who takes full advantage of this is Keller with the Axis MG.

Layout first. The map is basically a L shape, with the two Axis points on the short end and the other three points on the long end. This means that the Axis have a fairly safe approach to get right up close to the middle point. While there are some ways that the Allies can skirt around a back way, an entire line of approach past the second Allied flag is completely open to assault from Axis MG and sniper positions.

The other layout issue that I have is that there's several different avenues of approach to the Allied second and first flags. You can go left or right. There's a building in the middle to hide in. And on the right side you can go over and under the buildings. If the Allies are fortunate enough to hold the middle point and start pushing to the Axis second and first flag, you're pretty much funneled into a shooting gallery. There's some buildings you can get in on the side at the second flag, but to get there you've got to cross MG and sniper covered territory. There aren't really many options for that.

The layout leads to visibility issues. As I mentioned before, the Axis have a straight look across the middle point to the second Allied point and a bit beyond. This is a situation that Keller uses to his advantage often, picking off approaching Allies at a distance and cutting off that line of approach unless you've got a sniper that can pick him off. The Allies do not have anything even close to comparable to this position. They don't have any MG position that overlooks the middle and second Axis point, and they don't really even have decent MG spots to cover the middle to begin with.


I think the fix for this would be a two step approach. First, put in a right angle turn between the middle and Allied second flag position. This would even things up better with approaching the middle point. Second, open up some buildings on the Axis side opposite the second flag. This would provide an alternate route to the Axis first, matching up with the Allied side better.




I'm also curious about something. Everyone keeps saying this was an old-school map, but I can't remember it at all as a stock map for any version. What versions was it in, and was it called something different? I'm curious why I don't remember it. I've been playing since beta 1 or 2, and it just doesn't ring a bell.

[Sgt.Stahlman]

I agree that this map is weighted, but I don't see this as a real issue. I mean, as far as fixing or making the map better, I feel if we find someone that can Mod maps, we have other maps that could use some tweaking that would help their popularity before working on Hobo. IMO, only few people complain about it, so we should focus on maps that need say, tunnels, or a minimap before working on a map that is generally liked already. Just my two cents.

[Perculator]

Oh, certainly agreed. I just keep bringing it up, so I figured I'd air my concerns here so I can stop doing it every time we switch to the map.



If I could figure out how to make a minimap, I would do that for every one that doesn't have one in a heartbeat. I -HATE- not having the minimap.


I've done some stuff in Hammer in the past, but it's been years and years since then. I suppose I could try and pick it up and see if I could figure it out. I'll post if I try and take a crack at it.

[Sgt.Stahlman]

Your thoughts are welcomed Perc. Your ambition is appreciated and maybe we can all learn a little and put our heads together and get some of our so-so maps up to par with our popular maps and start drawing more and more players to our servers!!!

[Comet]

Excellent input, well said. Always like to see a member express their thoughts and share with the community.

I agree with your assesment. However I'm perfectly fine with the gameplay the map offers. I will always try to select Allied knowing it presents a challenge. Selecting Axis and parking your ass with an MG is for those who play for score. Taking the Axis MG out...priceless.

Oddly enough Axis do not win the map all that often, I find the map plays out to a stalemate more often then not. I like that, very challenging. Both teams can win, its a matter of teamwork. I recommend alltalk off and teamtalk on to enable strategy...

Hobofire in its current form has been around since Jan 06.

[Perculator]

Hobofire in its current form has been around since Jan 06.

That may be during my down time, which would make sense. I probably played from '03ish to '05ish, and then picked up again in the last couple months.


First attempt at a minimap didn't pan out. I'll try again later.

[Perculator]

Take 2 = Win

http://steamcommunit...925602690002261
http://steamcommunit...925602689998057

That's with no editing of the overview screenshot. Since it's taken with noclip on, the borders get all green...but that could be tweaked easily. Anybody got some artistic tallents with Photoshop or Gimp or something?

I'm not sure how easy this is to distribute with existing maps. I'll need to look into that I suppose.

Edited by Perculator, 11 June 2011 - 02:39 PM.

[Comet]

Send me an pregame overview screenshot and I'll do my thing. Distribution and sizing I know nothing of...

[Perculator]

I'm not sure what you mean by a "pregame overview screenshot"...
Wait, do you mean you just want the texture file to edit up? If that's what you want, PM me how to get it to you and I'll kick it your way with some notes. I'd upload it, but there's a 150k limit and the file is 4 megs.


As for my concerns about distribution, they mainly have to do with VAC and file inconsistencies. I'd take these to the Steam forums prior to making the change on the server. Here's how it plays out:

The overview consists of three things. A VMT and VTF file which describe the texture and material used for the minimap, along with a resource text file describing how the material is used. These three files can be added to your dod:s directory structure without any modification of the map file itself.

This setup leaves us with a few options:

The first is to run a utility to merge the overview files into the map .bsp file. To do this, we'd really be renaming the map (in my example, to something like "dod_hobofire_minimap.bsp"). This would result in everyone having to download a whole new copy of the map in addition to the overview. That doesn't seem like a great idea to me, unless it's a brand new map we're trying out that nobody's downloaded yet.

The second option is to try and put just the 3 individual files up on the server and see if a user connecting to the server is forced to download the overview files in addition to the map. This would be ideal, as hopefully people that already have the map would just have to get the overview.

What concerns me about this is if somebody already has an overview file for a map for some reason, and it differs from the one on the server. I've got no idea how the server and host would respond in that case, or if VAC would take any issue with weird file inconsistencies. I kinda doubt it, but who knows.

[Comet]

That's ok Perc I'll work on a map image and pimp it out. Once complete I'll post it up, hopefully someone with the know how can add it to the server...

[Red Dragon/Mushu]

i have seen allied win more times than axis tbh lol

[Comet]

I've attached the mini map I made for hobofire. It was more work than I thought but came out look'in lush. Hopefully it can be uploaded to server as a static map, size can be adjusted...

Attached Files

•  dod_hobofire_minimap.jpg   392.98KB   17 downloads

[Sgt.Stahlman]

looks GREAT comet. Love the Compliments of MoonGamers!!! SWEET!!

[SabaHell]

@Perculator: The map does have those disadvantages, Perc, and I do agree with you on certain aspects (I always leave if hobofire wins). The map is severely weighted since the axis can hold the tank and consistently churn out either a victory or a stalemate which means no one wins, especially when people pick up extra MG's.

@Stahlman: Ripping apart maps and recompiling them is a hell of a job in itself especially when you're re-configuring ANY map that has already been compiled unless you manage to find the uncompiled version; not to mention you have to make sure that the changes made will not affect the overall balance of the map itself. As far as hobofire goes it's generally a lost cause because the map is so old; the changes you make on it would create a whole new map entirely. As far as tunnels for certain maps: list them and I can give you reasons why those maps don't have tunnels.


In all honesty I would never make this map part of the general rotation; voted on for shits and giggles is fine, but never main rotation.

[Perculator]

I've attached the mini map I made for hobofire. It was more work than I thought but came out look'in lush. Hopefully it can be uploaded to server as a static map, size can be adjusted...

Looks nice. Did you have that working in-game?

[Comet]

Nope...out of my realm.

[Perculator]

Nope...out of my realm.

Let me know how to get an image to you. Position, size, orientation, and format are all of vital concern.

[Perculator]

Added a couple more screenshots with a simple map in there. Basically just took some time tracing buildings and walls to make a minimap that looks more like the stock ones.

http://steamcommunit...or/screenshots/

It's the ones loaded Jun 17. I'm sure if somebody had more time, and more image editing skills, they could come up with something better.

After looking at these closely while running around, there's a slight shift in the minimap. That can be tweaked away.

The primary elements are as follows:

Position and scale are vital. When you capture the map overview in-game, you need to know your exact x/y position in map space and the scale you're using, which is used to position players and objectives. There is a rotation parameter that I haven't tried to use yet. Personally, I'd rather avoid that if possible.

Size is vital. The finished map texture needs to be square and an even power of 2, so far as I can tell. The ones I made that worked were 1024x1024.

Compression may or may not be important. The original valve tools require that your texture is converted from an uncompressed TGA file. The tool I'm using seems to use may different compressed and uncompressed formats. So far, I've only tried it with uncompressed TGA, and that's working so I'd stick with it.




To some extent, I kinda feel like a solid texture with correct positioning would still be more useful than no minimap at all. At least you could get a general feel for where points are and where your teammates are.

Edited by Perculator, 17 June 2011 - 04:19 PM.

[MoonLight]

I believe it does depend on the team ive seen an allied team win 3 times in a row and then team auto adjustment was enabled and then ive seen axis win 3 times in a row.. i agree with comet it is all in the team work for example.. there was one game played with me and iceman as a sniper and a random guy as mg but he was a good mg... in which case me and iceman held off the snipers and axis mg as our assaults and supports communicated very well leading to a great game and a great victory. it is a challenging map but that is what i think makes it unique.