15 replies to this topic

[FlameHaze]

Greetings,

 

Battle of Britain needs to be balanced and doesn't work with the values used on all other maps. (30 min / 1000 tickets)

This particular map isn't about a fight for map control, it's a fight against the clock / ticket count.

Axis has to finish before it their time / tickets run out and Allies have to last that long.

By making the timer / ticket count so much higher you made it too easy for Axis and impossible for Allies.

 

What do you think?

 

Regards,

Flame

[FlameHaze]

I presume devs balanced the map for default values of time / tickets

[Capn Cackler]

With increased time comes more time for the axis to bomb and destroy. You are correct there. That is why we added a second factory to the airfield. How would you propose a solution to balance out the map? On this map, everything goes, so what else would benefit the allied team without completely shutting down the axis team.

Another point is that dev balance wasn't necessarily good. Take Market Garden for example, with axis originally having no planes while allied got the bomber AND 2 mustangs.

[TheCalmingClam]

Battle of Britain needs bots to not be able to get in the crucial AA guns so human players can get in them. Also, boats for allies might help them shoot down planes easier. Definitely a hard task to defend Britain for 30 minutes.

[Timmy!]

You get the allies to spawn as engineers and at least wrench the factories before jumping into a plane. 

 

Or do like I do.  Spawn as engy, wrench factory as I climb to the roof.  When the wrench runs out, jump off the roof and die.  Spawn, wrench, die, repeat.

[Colonel Tavington]

Please don't jump, Timmy, you've got a lot to live for

 

Seriously though, yep, the factories are the key.  If the Allies protect and repair the factories from the start, it's tough for the Axis to win. If the Axis concentrate on taking out the factories first with the Allied players spread out over the map, then it's tough for the Allies to win.  It comes down to which team plays smarter about the factories. Another option for the Allies is to pin the Axis down at their airfield and keep them on the defensive.  I think the map is fine as is.

[Timmy!]

Please don't jump, Timmy, you've got a lot to live for

 

Seriously though, yep, the factories are the key.  If the Allies protect and repair the factories from the start, it's tough for the Axis to win. If the Axis concentrate on taking out the factories first with the Allied players spread out over the map, then it's tough for the Allies to win.  It comes down to which team plays smarter about the factories. Another option for the Allies is to pin the Axis down at their airfield and keep them on the defensive.  I think the map is fine as is.

I'll jump!   But like the Terminator says, "Ahll be bak"

 

Once upon a time I was part of the =TAW= clan, home of Battle of Britain 24/7. I have a soft spot in my heart for that map. I picked up the spawn/wrench/die technique after watching another player do it all the time.   But if I was on Axis....I'm coming for your bases.

[FlameHaze]

With increased time comes more time for the axis to bomb and destroy. You are correct there. That is why we added a second factory to the airfield. How would you propose a solution to balance out the map? On this map, everything goes, so what else would benefit the allied team without completely shutting down the axis team.

Another point is that dev balance wasn't necessarily good. Take Market Garden for example, with axis originally having no planes while allied got the bomber AND 2 mustangs.

Sure maybe Devs didn't get it right,  but we can use that as a starting point.  Alternatively we can measure the speed of AXIS ticket bleed, then take a look how many tickets AXIS lost by the time they win.

That is how many tickets AXIS uses right now when there's no urgency. Thus cut it that ticket count by 20% and set it as the AXIS starting count.  See if we get Allies win some or maybe even get close to 50/50 win ratio. Adjust if needed.

 

If you want to keep current duration my suggestion is increase the factory / and the AA stations hit points proportionally to the additional match length.  (Time you want to set / Time Allies can last from above)  So if the match is twice as long, double the hit points, or half the bomb damage.

I would prefer to go back to one factory simply because it's too many objects to defend.  Let's say 2 people for each factory plus one in each station = minimum 8 just to man all the defenses.  In reality I routinely see 2,3 or even all AA stations not being manned.

Battle of Britain needs bots to not be able to get in the crucial AA guns so human players can get in them. Also, boats for allies might help them shoot down planes easier. Definitely a hard task to defend Britain for 30 minutes.

I think it's actually 45 minutes, roundtime is 2700, but time isn't the issue.  This map is supposed to be ticket limited, the ticket bleed on AXIS that runs through the match is supposed to be the limiter.

I personally haven't seen Allies win even once, have you?

[FlameHaze]

Please don't jump, Timmy, you've got a lot to live for

 

Seriously though, yep, the factories are the key.  If the Allies protect and repair the factories from the start, it's tough for the Axis to win. If the Axis concentrate on taking out the factories first with the Allied players spread out over the map, then it's tough for the Allies to win.  It comes down to which team plays smarter about the factories. Another option for the Allies is to pin the Axis down at their airfield and keep them on the defensive.  I think the map is fine as is.

Your line of thought is fine in a clan match where you have a team that assigns roles to each player and they cooperate.

We are talking about a public match, how often do you see AA stations unmanned, or as I previously asked do you recall Allies ever win or even come close?

[FlameHaze]

 

Please don't jump, Timmy, you've got a lot to live for

 

Seriously though, yep, the factories are the key.  If the Allies protect and repair the factories from the start, it's tough for the Axis to win. If the Axis concentrate on taking out the factories first with the Allied players spread out over the map, then it's tough for the Allies to win.  It comes down to which team plays smarter about the factories. Another option for the Allies is to pin the Axis down at their airfield and keep them on the defensive.  I think the map is fine as is.

I'll jump!   But like the Terminator says, "Ahll be bak"

 

Once upon a time I was part of the =TAW= clan, home of Battle of Britain 24/7. I have a soft spot in my heart for that map. I picked up the spawn/wrench/die technique after watching another player do it all the time.   But if I was on Axis....I'm coming for your bases.

 

Thanks for the tip, I never thought of that. But you can't really expect pubbies to do that.

When you use this suicide strategy ala Groundhog Day style are you able to Win matches as Allies on Moon?

[TheCalmingClam]

 

With increased time comes more time for the axis to bomb and destroy. You are correct there. That is why we added a second factory to the airfield. How would you propose a solution to balance out the map? On this map, everything goes, so what else would benefit the allied team without completely shutting down the axis team.

Another point is that dev balance wasn't necessarily good. Take Market Garden for example, with axis originally having no planes while allied got the bomber AND 2 mustangs.

Sure maybe Devs didn't get it right,  but we can use that as a starting point.  Alternatively we can measure the speed of AXIS ticket bleed, then take a look how many tickets AXIS lost by the time they win.

That is how many tickets AXIS uses right now when there's no urgency. Thus cut it that ticket count by 20% and set it as the AXIS starting count.  See if we get Allies win some or maybe even get close to 50/50 win ratio. Adjust if needed.

 

If you want to keep current duration my suggestion is increase the factory / and the AA stations hit points proportionally to the additional match length.  (Time you want to set / Time Allies can last from above)  So if the match is twice as long, double the hit points, or half the bomb damage.

I would prefer to go back to one factory simply because it's too many objects to defend.  Let's say 2 people for each factory plus one in each station = minimum 8 just to man all the defenses.  In reality I routinely see 2,3 or even all AA stations not being manned.

Battle of Britain needs bots to not be able to get in the crucial AA guns so human players can get in them. Also, boats for allies might help them shoot down planes easier. Definitely a hard task to defend Britain for 30 minutes.

I think it's actually 45 minutes, roundtime is 2700, but time isn't the issue.  This map is supposed to be ticket limited, the ticket bleed on AXIS that runs through the match is supposed to be the limiter.

I personally haven't seen Allies win even once, have you?

 

 

I've seen Allies win, but it's rare. Usually takes a lot of corralling to get people to spawn engineer and repair every time.
 

[Colonel Tavington]

Yes, I've seen Allies win many times (and not just come close), often when the Axis had certain players who would do things like hog the bombers to kill infantry near the facs to run up their score instead of hitting the facs. As of late, I would say that the Axis team usually has the upper hand but that's because the players on Axis are doing better at pressing home the attacks when and where they should be.  There are several of us who advocate for that in-game and it seems to have had an effect.  Give it a try on Allies to do better at protect and repair (or go for the pin-down strategy at the Axis base, a few good pilots communicating with each other can wreak havoc over there). 

[FlameHaze]

Yes, I've seen Allies win many times (and not just come close), often when the Axis had certain players who would do things like hog the bombers to kill infantry near the facs to run up their score instead of hitting the facs. As of late, I would say that the Axis team usually has the upper hand but that's because the players on Axis are doing better at pressing home the attacks when and where they should be.  There are several of us who advocate for that in-game and it seems to have had an effect.  Give it a try on Allies to do better at protect and repair (or go for the pin-down strategy at the Axis base, a few good pilots communicating with each other can wreak havoc over there). 

 

Dunno why you are opposed to my suggestion, your own statement is self defeating. 

You start out by saying it's a common occurrence for Allies to win, but then you go on to elaborate that it happens when AXIS team is "special" and doesn't even try to win and Allies are full of dedicated repair teams.

Let's rephrase my point away from the anecdotal, would you say that Allies win around half of the time?  Teams are random there is no AXIS team that should have upper hand as you state, that is a sign of unbalanced map.

 

I looked into this a bit further as you raised concerns that you'd like to keep it as is and these are the values that DICE set for the Objective Mode (below)

We raised tickets 10 times from 100 to 1000.  This map is intended to be fought on tickets and it's a huge change.

The time limit was 15 minutes but tickets ran out first. Thus a match that should last around 10 minutes is now at least 3 times as long.  

 

rem defender tickets are set to 100

Game.setNumberOfTickets 1 100

Game.setTicketLostPerMin 1 0

Game.setTicketLostPerMin 2 0

ObjectTemplate.TimeLimit 900.0 - 15 mins

 

It's actually quite simple to MOD the map and try it out with different values.  If you'd like I can MOD the map and send it to you to test / try out.

[Colonel Tavington]

Not self-defeating at all, it was an example that went right to my point that the team that plays smarter about the factories is usually going to win. If both teams play smart or both play dumb then the results will be more random.  I've seen it run in cycles here where the Allies won a lot because they (even as a random team) were playing smarter about the factories than the Axis and now it's the Axis that are winning a lot of the time because (even as a random team) they are playing smarter than the Allies about factories.  Now in the grand statistical scheme of things, one side or the other may have an "advantage" under the current setup but you could be tinkering with the map until Doomsday to try to get a "perfect" play balance and not get it (along with unintended consequences to play balance).  I think the map is fine as is and if the Allies have the shortend of the stick right now with the outcomes then it's up to the players who find themselves on the Allied team to either step-up with the protect and repair the facs once again or try a drastic approach like pinning down the Axis at their base (which I have seen done) for much of the game. A little communication among the players can go a long way and you don't even have to get all or most of them onboard with a game plan, just enough of them.  It's not me that you have to convince.  If you can convince the mods, then more power to you and I'll play the game the way it's changed. But here's a tip for you: you're not going to find too many people here who enjoy playing BoB who will want to see the map capped at 10 minutes max.  About the only people who would be for that will be the ones who don't like BoB and want it dropped or made as short as possible.

[FlameHaze]

I guess your mind is made up and that's fine, but I stand by my arguments.  

Nobody is talking about perfect balance, as you say that would be impossible.  I'm simply trying to make it competitive and address the gross imbalance.

Playing a survival mission with the same equipment for 3-4 times as long is clearly an issue and my personal experience is losing with about 12 mins remaining every time.

Maybe you play with all your buddies on discord thus you are an organized team vs pubies and that advantage levels the playing field somewhat, I usually play with pubbies.

I wonder if server has logs that we can look up the actual win rate.

 

Let's see of the Admins will want to invest time to make a change that apparently most people don't care about.

[FlameHaze]

Not self-defeating at all, it was an example that went right to my point that the team that plays smarter about the factories is usually going to win. If both teams play smart or both play dumb then the results will be more random.  I've seen it run in cycles here where the Allies won a lot because they (even as a random team) were playing smarter about the factories than the Axis and now it's the Axis that are winning a lot of the time because (even as a random team) they are playing smarter than the Allies about factories.  Now in the grand statistical scheme of things, one side or the other may have an "advantage" under the current setup but you could be tinkering with the map until Doomsday to try to get a "perfect" play balance and not get it (along with unintended consequences to play balance).  I think the map is fine as is and if the Allies have the shortend of the stick right now with the outcomes then it's up to the players who find themselves on the Allied team to either step-up with the protect and repair the facs once again or try a drastic approach like pinning down the Axis at their base (which I have seen done) for much of the game. A little communication among the players can go a long way and you don't even have to get all or most of them onboard with a game plan, just enough of them.  It's not me that you have to convince.  If you can convince the mods, then more power to you and I'll play the game the way it's changed. But here's a tip for you: you're not going to find too many people here who enjoy playing BoB who will want to see the map capped at 10 minutes max.  About the only people who would be for that will be the ones who don't like BoB and want it dropped or made as short as possible.

 

Tavington, you were right and I was wrong. I have witnessed with my own eyes an Allied victory.  I only caught the last 5 minutes of the match but Allies definitely dominated. 

Around 10 Allied spitfires were destroying all AXIS planes on take off, staying just outside the AA range.  When I broke out I found Allied objectives undefended with 4 AA stations and 1 factory surviving.

Presumably the camping went on for so long the defenders got bored and took off to join the camping themselves.  I took down a Radar Station unopposed in the little time I had.

 

This made me realize that the fact that we permit Allies to camp an uncap flag on of this MAP is a tacit admission that the map is unbalanced.  Which certainly levels the odds but isn't the best solution to the problem especially since AXIS cannot capture any flags. 

 

Anywho just wanted to share this with you as I was surprised to witness what I haven't seen before.  Thus I waive the white flag, there seems to be no interest from the Admins.